FlyingGiants Exclusive! Introducing The Futaba 12FG, Modules & More! - Page 8

hovervt · 04-05-2007, 06:52 PM

I cannot wait to see the differeces between the 12Fg and plugging in a module to my 12z. Will the FG have more or less features. Hope we see a price soon. Just want more info. FLYNYAK, looks like we will need to get out the Heat gun and revise your trailer. lol It will look bettter with orange decals anyways. lol

crhammond · 04-05-2007, 06:57 PM

I posted on RCU here regardin the 12Z/14MZ modules: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_56...tm.htm#5671238

They got back to me in less than the time it took me to fly home from my business trip! I posted 5 mins before wheels up - I land at home, check email and they already replied!

According to BAX - the modules for the 12Z and 14MZ make your radio into a FASST system. No PPM, no PCM, no latency, more features than the 12FG.

All I can say is I am SO GLAD I bought my 12Z now! Wooo Hooo!!!!

Tor · 04-05-2007, 06:58 PM

	Quote: Originally Posted by Boulder
	Slow? From my understanding of transmitter function, PPM is faster than any of the PCM systems out there

From the Spectrum thead:
MAJOR 2.4 Ghz Spread Spectrum Release! A FlyingGiants Exclusive!

	Quote: Originally Posted by toprudder
	Unless Spektrum has reverse engineered the Futaba PCM data stream, then they would have to use PPM. I don't know for a fact, but I have heard that at least some of the 9ch Futaba systems won't output more than 8 channels in PPM mode. If the system uses PPM, then we are stuck with the update rate of a standard PPM system, somewhere around 20ms. The newer Futaba systems (12MZ and 14MZ) using G3 PCM have faster update rates, and I suspect any 2.4ghz module and receivers that Futaba comes out with will probably utilize the PCM data stream, or possibly have a firware update for something even better for their 2.4ghz module...

So... is the TX using PPM to communicate with the modules or not?

crhammond · 04-05-2007, 06:58 PM

	Quote: Originally Posted by hovervt
	I cannot wait to see the differeces between the 12Fg and plugging in a module to my 12z. Will the FG have more or less features. Hope we see a price soon. Just want more info. FLYNYAK, looks like we will need to get out the Heat gun and revise your trailer. lol It will look bettter with orange decals anyways. lol

According to BAX - the FG is between the 9C and 12Z - less features. So a 12Z with a 2.4 FASST module is more feature rich than a 12FG.

crhammond · 04-05-2007, 06:59 PM

No PPM on the 12Z/14MZ ... no idea on the others.

notorious_benny · 04-05-2007, 07:01 PM

	Quote: Originally Posted by crhammond
	According to BAX - the FG is between the 9C and 12Z - less features. So a 12Z with a 2.4 FASST module is more feature rich than a 12FG.

Well that settles it then, I have been tossing up getting a 14mz for a while but have been holding out for a 2.4 version.
If I get the 14mz I can still use 36Mhz if I wish, choice is always nice!

wollins · 04-05-2007, 07:03 PM

subscribed

**Boulder** · 04-05-2007, 07:05 PM

	Quote: Originally Posted by Windecker
	Not positive, but I think the ppm is like 1024 speed. Might need to cross check that though. The new 2.4 FASST speed as stated in several areas above is similar to the 2048 speed which is very fast. Switch from 1024 to 2048 and you will under snap your snaps till you get used to the faster speed. Will B.

Hey Will,

Like you, I'm not 100% positive, so I will need to defer to the experts. My input was strictly from my understanding of the systems, not an extreme expertise in the matter.

I'll patiently wait the answer from the pros.

KatManDEW · 04-05-2007, 07:09 PM

Will there be a micro receiver for indoor aircraft?

Dantley · 04-05-2007, 07:09 PM

And I was going to sell my 14mz. Not anymore.

notorious_benny · 04-05-2007, 07:10 PM

What is the difference between PPM and PCM?
PPM stands for Pulse Position Modulation, and PCM stands for Pulse Code Modulation. Here is a basic comparison between the current crop of receivers on the market.

PPM
Our traditional "FM" is still a framed signal that the rx processes. The only difference is that it is an analog based signal. So what happens is that any signal received within the "frame" for that channel is processed. This is the famous glitch where the servos are sent screwy for an instant.

The advantages of FM are low cost. Also the resolution (in theory) can be very high because there is (theoretically) no loss of signal during the conversion to digital. This is only true with analog radios, though. Digital radios put PCM and PPM on a level playing field as far as resolution goes.

Disadvantages -
The "glitch". This spastic movement of the servos when a bad signal is decoded is why many people prefer to switch away from traditional PPM. Also the resolution that many of the older radios had is removed by the new "digital" txs that use only 512 or 1024 bits of resolution. But to be honest, that is a minor problem and most people would never see it.
Slower Refresh rate - A PPM Rx sends a signal to the servo once every 20-25ms. A PCM Rx sends pulses almost twice as often. This is true with my Futaba systems--I have measured it with my oscilloscope.

PCM
PCM is still broadcast on the FM carrier wave. But instead of using a PPM frame setup, a digital stream is created of x bits (1024 for most). The digital stream consists of a header, a trailer, a set of parity bits, a failsafe section, and the actual control section. The receiver takes this stream/word and decodes it into the control positions based on the position in the stream. Since a small microcomputer is in the Rx, quite a bit of processing can be done during this section.

Advantages -
No more glitch! While the same bad data is received by the RX, the microcomputer has the smarts to reject that bad data and not move the servos. So for that instant you simply don't get movement of the servos. For 99% of the people out there, this is the only reason they switch to PCM! Another advantage is better control of certain surfaces. On PPM, all channels are of equal value.
Faster refresh rate - While a PPM Rx only sends out a servo pulse once every 20-25ms, the PCM Rx's are almost twice as often, at about 10-15ms. For Futaba gear, anyway, the thought that PCM's have slower refresh time is a myth! I have measured it with my oscilloscope.

Disadvantages - There are several so I will list them:
Proprietary - Each company's PCM is only compatible with PCM rxs and txs of their own make. Most aftermarket rxs will not work on proprietary PCM txs. So your are locked in to one brand or even one rx!

Slow response time compared to PPM. The actual data stream is larger (2- 3 times) the size of PPM. Many pattern fliers used to switch to PPM simply because they felt the added speed of PPM helped them. I know that on one of my giant scale planes I can tell the difference between the PCM update and PPM update. Only one plane, but there is a difference. Note that I have not yet checked this to verify it.

lower resolution. On systems that output pure analog PPM, the resolution is higher on PPM than PCM. But for most of us this is not a problem. And for the killer! The PCM lockout. When the PCM rx gets too many bad packets it then goes into a lockout or failsafe position. This continues for several refresh cycles after a valid packet is received. Most are around 1 second long before control is returned. It is this lockout that has most heli fliers staying with PPM! imagine hovering and having the system lock out for a second. A glitch can be just as bad, but at least then the control is instantly returned and not held up for a second or so. On the other hand, PCM lockouts are FAR fewer and much farther between than PPM glitches.

http://www.rcfaq.com/ANSWERS/RADIO/INDEX.HTM

The above is all just cut and paste.

**Kiwi** · 04-05-2007, 07:20 PM

	Quote: Originally Posted by Judge
	Not sure this got posted yet (probably did) but here it is again to keep it current: Futaba FASST!!!!!!! details here: http://2.4gigahertz.com/radios/futk9275.html http://2.4gigahertz.com/modules/futl7637.html This is such a cool thing, I'm figuring out right now just how much I can afford!! Defintely a module for the 14MZ and several 14 channel RXs. And what the heck, maybe a 12FG just cause it looks so damn cool!!!!! Team Futaba

Judge,

Just off the horn with Futabaman trying to make sure you team guys dont get them all. I have been told he who grovels the most and greases the palm comes out a winner. I'm in need a 12 because my 14MZ case is the old style and has room for two sets. The poor old 14 likely feels a bit lonely in that big old case so if I buy it a sister it might just perform better.

Thats my theory and I'm sticking to it.

Kiwi

04-05-2007, 06:52 PM	#85 (permalink)
hovervt Doo It! Doo It! Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Troy, Vermont Age: 40 Posts: 96	Re: FlyingGiants Exclusive! Introducing The Futaba 12FG, Modules & More! I cannot wait to see the differeces between the 12Fg and plugging in a module to my 12z. Will the FG have more or less features. Hope we see a price soon. Just want more info. FLYNYAK, looks like we will need to get out the Heat gun and revise your trailer. lol It will look bettter with orange decals anyways. lol

04-05-2007, 06:57 PM	#86 (permalink)
crhammond Bad-ass Super Contributer! Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada Age: 39 Posts: 602	Re: FlyingGiants Exclusive! Introducing The Futaba 12FG, Modules & More! I posted on RCU here regardin the 12Z/14MZ modules: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_56...tm.htm#5671238 They got back to me in less than the time it took me to fly home from my business trip! I posted 5 mins before wheels up - I land at home, check email and they already replied! According to BAX - the modules for the 12Z and 14MZ make your radio into a FASST system. No PPM, no PCM, no latency, more features than the 12FG. All I can say is I am SO GLAD I bought my 12Z now! Wooo Hooo!!!!

04-05-2007, 06:59 PM	#89 (permalink)
crhammond Bad-ass Super Contributer! Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada Age: 39 Posts: 602	Re: FlyingGiants Exclusive! Introducing The Futaba 12FG, Modules & More! No PPM on the 12Z/14MZ ... no idea on the others.

04-05-2007, 07:03 PM	#91 (permalink)
wollins Flyin' Around Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 9	Re: FlyingGiants Exclusive! Introducing The Futaba 12FG, Modules & More! subscribed

04-05-2007, 07:09 PM	#93 (permalink)
KatManDEW Flyin' Around Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nerk, Ahia Posts: 27	Re: FlyingGiants Exclusive! Introducing The Futaba 12FG, Modules & More! Will there be a micro receiver for indoor aircraft?


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04-05-2007, 07:09 PM	#94 (permalink)
Dantley Super Contributer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: San Jose, California Posts: 140	Re: FlyingGiants Exclusive! Introducing The Futaba 12FG, Modules & More! And I was going to sell my 14mz. Not anymore.

04-05-2007, 07:10 PM	#95 (permalink)
notorious_benny IMAC wannabe! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Griffith, NSW, Australia Age: 27 Posts: 2,942 Awards Showcase Total Awards: 1	Re: FlyingGiants Exclusive! Introducing The Futaba 12FG, Modules & More! *What is the difference between PPM and PCM?* PPM stands for Pulse Position Modulation, and PCM stands for Pulse Code Modulation. Here is a basic comparison between the current crop of receivers on the market. PPM Our traditional "FM" is still a framed signal that the rx processes. The only difference is that it is an analog based signal. So what happens is that any signal received within the "frame" for that channel is processed. This is the famous glitch where the servos are sent screwy for an instant. The advantages of FM are low cost. Also the resolution (in theory) can be very high because there is (theoretically) no loss of signal during the conversion to digital. This is only true with analog radios, though. Digital radios put PCM and PPM on a level playing field as far as resolution goes. Disadvantages - The "glitch". This spastic movement of the servos when a bad signal is decoded is why many people prefer to switch away from traditional PPM. Also the resolution that many of the older radios had is removed by the new "digital" txs that use only 512 or 1024 bits of resolution. But to be honest, that is a minor problem and most people would never see it. Slower Refresh rate - A PPM Rx sends a signal to the servo once every 20-25ms. A PCM Rx sends pulses almost twice as often. This is true with my Futaba systems--I have measured it with my oscilloscope. PCM PCM is still broadcast on the FM carrier wave. But instead of using a PPM frame setup, a digital stream is created of x bits (1024 for most). The digital stream consists of a header, a trailer, a set of parity bits, a failsafe section, and the actual control section. The receiver takes this stream/word and decodes it into the control positions based on the position in the stream. Since a small microcomputer is in the Rx, quite a bit of processing can be done during this section. Advantages - No more glitch! While the same bad data is received by the RX, the microcomputer has the smarts to reject that bad data and not move the servos. So for that instant you simply don't get movement of the servos. For 99% of the people out there, this is the only reason they switch to PCM! Another advantage is better control of certain surfaces. On PPM, all channels are of equal value. Faster refresh rate - While a PPM Rx only sends out a servo pulse once every 20-25ms, the PCM Rx's are almost twice as often, at about 10-15ms. For Futaba gear, anyway, the thought that PCM's have slower refresh time is a myth! I have measured it with my oscilloscope. Disadvantages - There are several so I will list them: Proprietary - Each company's PCM is only compatible with PCM rxs and txs of their own make. Most aftermarket rxs will not work on proprietary PCM txs. So your are locked in to one brand or even one rx! Slow response time compared to PPM. The actual data stream is larger (2- 3 times) the size of PPM. Many pattern fliers used to switch to PPM simply because they felt the added speed of PPM helped them. I know that on one of my giant scale planes I can tell the difference between the PCM update and PPM update. Only one plane, but there is a difference. Note that I have not yet checked this to verify it. lower resolution. On systems that output pure analog PPM, the resolution is higher on PPM than PCM. But for most of us this is not a problem. And for the killer! The PCM lockout. When the PCM rx gets too many bad packets it then goes into a lockout or failsafe position. This continues for several refresh cycles after a valid packet is received. Most are around 1 second long before control is returned. It is this lockout that has most heli fliers staying with PPM! imagine hovering and having the system lock out for a second. A glitch can be just as bad, but at least then the control is instantly returned and not held up for a second or so. On the other hand, PCM lockouts are FAR fewer and much farther between than PPM glitches. http://www.rcfaq.com/ANSWERS/RADIO/INDEX.HTM The above is all just cut and paste. __________________ Comp-arf Super Extra powered by 3W 157 CS TS SD 35% Yak 54 powered by 3W 106 CS