Spins -- Final Chapter

[paffy]

Maybe we should take the rulebook, extract all sentences which have "aircraft must" in them and paste together a new book.

We should call it "IMAC ain't for sissies anymore".

You either fly a perfect maneuver and get a 10, or you get ZERO. Nothing in between !

P.

[paffy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Shawn Berkheimer
	Ok I have a question for the two of you guys that seem to be getting a tad heated here. 1. Have you 2 guys attended a judging seminar? 2. Have you guys flown in contests on a regular basis. Shawn

Yes, I attended judging seminars. I'm also the creator of flight animations that are being used in IMAC judging seminars throughout the USA.

Yes, I compete regularly. I'm a north east Unlimited champion for 2005 and 2006. I placed 3rd in JR Challenge 2006 and 9th in IMAC National championships.

P.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Shawn Berkheimer
	Ok I have a question for the two of you guys that seem to be getting a tad heated here. 1. Have you 2 guys attended a judging seminar? 2. Have you guys flown in contests on a regular basis. Shawn

Several

Very often. Paul whooped me at the JR challenge a few years ago (I took 5th out of 13 pilots), but I called for David Smith, who beat him. .. ahhh justice Also competed in the Nats and placed 5th in Advanced. Just can't seem to get the time off to do a repeat. I've been flying IMAC for 7-8 years now.

Paul and I get heated because he is an Engineer and I am a Mechanic.

[Shawn Berkheimer]

Well then Paul I would have to say that you know what it takes to score well on a spin.

Shawn

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by paffy
	Maybe we should take the rulebook, extract all sentences which have "aircraft must" in them and paste together a new book. We should call it "IMAC ain't for sissies anymore". You either fly a perfect maneuver and get a 10, or you get ZERO. Nothing in between ! P.

Only hairy apes like me would compete Paul.

Every rule has it's ambiguities, some are more glaring than others. This is one of them because someone tried to be inclusive due to the flying characteristics of our much lighter, and smaller, planes. Most planes can be properly spun, some take a bit more input and work to get them to do it in textbook fashion. We are trying to fly the manuvers per textbook, or so I always thought, with 10 being perfect, and downgrades from there. Why bother having a downgrade criteria for a portion of the flight that is not even supposed to exist? The plane is not supposed to fly foreward after the stall break, yet we allow it to happen and just downgrade for it.

You still have not answered how far the plane is supposed to fly forward in a stalled condition before the manuver is no longer considered a spin, Paul. Getting everyone on the same page would help with this little conflict with perfection .. . I say 2-3 plane lengths. max.

After that I start giving negative numbers that subract from all the other manuvers in the sequence. NOW we're talking anti-sissy IMAC.

[paffy]

I say you can harrier it for 400 ft into a spin if you want to. Hell, you can harrier a four point roll in front of me if you feel like it.

Let's see how many deductions PER WRITTEN CRITERIA you pick up on the way. Maybe then the pilot would realize there's an easier way of doing things. If not, he'll get beaten by people who do.

P.

[JimC-MD]

It amazes me how long this topic has continued. Well, maybe it really does not.

This is one of the reasons I have been hesitant to enter competition. The unknown of how to present for a judge. The hours of effort to be consistent only to find out that when in Rome.........

Words mean things. Slight nuances in meaning is what makes lawyers rich and regular folks nuts. The best you can do is take the common meanings of words for what they are and use that to grasp the words of a sentence.

Where does the idea that a stall indicates a stop come from? The definition of a stall that I found was this....... A condition in which an aircraft or airfoil experiences an interruption of airflow resulting in loss of lift and a tendency to drop......I do not read a "stop and drop" in that unless by the word stop we understand that the speed of the aircraft and flow over the wing "stops" being able to maintain altitude in a manner that causes the plane to "drop" or "fall" from it's flightpath. It would seem intuitive to me that the plane can still be moving forward and be in a stalled condition. The all important "break" that I keep reading about appears to be only way we have from the ground to know that the wing is actually stalled. Nowhere in my reading comprehension do I see the picture in my mind that the plane should appear to hit a wall and stop all forward movement. I guess this is why airplanes have known stall speeds at specific air densities. Otherwise it sounds like they would all be rated at zero?

For the record, no, I do not compete at this time. The last time I did was in novice class pattern 20 years ago. I typically resist competition because of the types of disagreements I have been seeing here. I may give it a try, but would appreciate you guys getting all this stuff settled before I do! (tongue in cheek, kidding, hehe)


(please read this post with a little sarcasm and kidding in my typing. I am not trying to slam anyone or beat a horse. Just letting you know the thoughts of a lurking, potential future competitor)

All this stuff is good mental floss. Gets us thinking, discussing and hopefully improves the understanding of the topic without too many bruised fingers.

Everyone have a great day!

[Dangerous Dan]

KrisW,
Thanks for taking the time to make the video, It is definatly good topic for discussion.

You must be an x-marine because when confronted you swell up like a Bantum Rooster.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by paffy
	I say you can harrier it for 400 ft into a spin if you want to. Hell, you can harrier a four point roll in front of me if you feel like it. Let's see how many deductions PER WRITTEN CRITERIA you pick up on the way. Maybe then the pilot would realize there's an easier way of doing things. If not, he'll get beaten by people who do. P.

In that case I'll just go back to. . Simultaneous wing and nose drop. It's simple. If you can't present the manuver to me in somewhat proper fashion, who am I to crutch you through your inability to understand how the manuver is supposed to be flown in the first place. That's why we have these arguments, to try to iron out the criteria so that everyone is on the same page. Since you don't want to be part of the "Fix the broken rule" process, there's little reason to think you want to solve the problem, or at least come to a concesus.

There's more to a rule than just the letters. They also have spirit of intent. No one intended 400 foot stalled lines after a spin break. Perhaps they should have written that in too, but they messed up.

BTW . .Harriers have the nose ABOVE the horizon. After 400 feet you have zero'd the Airspace Control rule anyway, so further downgrades aren't really necessary.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Dangerous Dan
	KrisW, Thanks for taking the time to make the video, It is definatly good topic for discussion. You must be an x-marine because when confronted you swell up like a Bantum Rooster.

Actually I was trying to find my K-bar and Paffy's home address Dan.

There's no such thing as Ex-Marines. We just put the uniform away until it's needed again.

Someday I'll tell you about the fool who "confronted me" with a pistol, and tried to carjack me. It was not pretty.

One thing I'll admit, though. I'd rather have Paffy judging my flying than a lot of other people I know. We may argue about things, but it's always about nuance or perspective, not facts (except for PDY). And now I know I can do Harriers and not get downgrades from him

[paffy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by JimC-MD
	It amazes me how long this topic has continued. Well, maybe it really does not. This is one of the reasons I have been hesitant to enter competition. The unknown of how to present for a judge. The hours of effort to be consistent only to find out that when in Rome......... Words mean things. Slight nuances in meaning is what makes lawyers rich and regular folks nuts. The best you can do is take the common meanings of words for what they are and use that to grasp the words of a sentence. Where does the idea that a stall indicates a stop come from? The definition of a stall that I found was this....... A condition in which an aircraft or airfoil experiences an interruption of airflow resulting in loss of lift and a tendency to drop......I do not read a "stop and drop" in that unless by the word stop we understand that the speed of the aircraft and flow over the wing "stops" being able to maintain altitude in a manner that causes the plane to "drop" or "fall" from it's flightpath. It would seem intuitive to me that the plane can still be moving forward and be in a stalled condition. The all important "break" that I keep reading about appears to be only way we have from the ground to know that the wing is actually stalled. Nowhere in my reading comprehension do I see the picture in my mind that the plane should appear to hit a wall and stop all forward movement. I guess this is why airplanes have known stall speeds at specific air densities. Otherwise it sounds like they would all be rated at zero? For the record, no, I do not compete at this time. The last time I did was in novice class pattern 20 years ago. I typically resist competition because of the types of disagreements I have been seeing here. I may give it a try, but would appreciate you guys getting all this stuff settled before I do! (tongue in cheek, kidding, hehe) (please read this post with a little sarcasm and kidding in my typing. I am not trying to slam anyone or beat a horse. Just letting you know the thoughts of a lurking, potential future competitor) All this stuff is good mental floss. Gets us thinking, discussing and hopefully improves the understanding of the topic without too many bruised fingers. Everyone have a great day!

You see - now you can become a lawyer !!! (or an IMAC competitor). Fortunately, these heated "discussions" are mostly limited to online forums.

P.

[paffy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by KrisW
	In that case I'll just go back to. . Simultaneous wing and nose drop. It's simple. If you can't present the manuver to me in somewhat proper fashion, who am I to crutch you through your inability to understand how the manuver is supposed to be flown in the first place. That's why we have these arguments, to try to iron out the criteria so that everyone is on the same page. Since you don't want to be part of the "Fix the broken rule" process, there's little reason to think you want to solve the problem, or at least come to a concesus. There's more to a rule than just the letters. They also have spirit of intent. No one intended 400 foot stalled lines after a spin break. Perhaps they should have written that in too, but they messed up. BTW . .Harriers have the nose ABOVE the horizon. After 400 feet you have zero'd the Airspace Control rule anyway, so further downgrades aren't really necessary.

Yes - simultaneous wing and nose drop is what everybody should strive for. I think so, Kris thinks so and the rulebook says so.

Zeroing someone, because he delayed the wing drop by 0.05 seconds (thus it wasn't simultaneous) is nonsense.

Concurrently, downgrading him according to the rules shouldn't be considered a leniency of the judge.

If someone isn't clear on how to interpret the rules, IMAC has a contact for that purpose listed:

Rules, Judging and Sequences: Ken McGuire imacvp@mini-iac.com

I guess he is the authority on clearing up ambiguities.


P.