Spins -- Final Chapter

[Judge]

No worries. Just wanted to make certain that the whole group understood the process.

[paffy]

It's nice to have the person with the AUTHORITY to interpret rules come here and clarify the rule.

Otherwise, these threads always end up with the "he said, she said" with no clear answers for anybody who could actually benefit from it.

I, for one, will change my practice and start deducting for non concurrent nose/wing drop right from the break, not from horizontal attitude.

P.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Judge
	BTW - the ONLY ways to zero a spin are: 1 - failing to stall the plane (snap roll entry, etc.), no stall break visible to the judges. 2 - Failure to establish autorotation 3 - cumulative (or any single) errors) in track greater than 90 degrees Things you DO NOT zero a spin for: 1 - dropping nose before wing starts to drop, UNLESS the nose falls more than 90 degrees, or the drop PLUS the existing downgrades on the entry line are greater than 90 degrees. It has NOTHING to do with the horizon per se. If the nose is pointed up at 60 degrees (extreme for example) and the nose drops 20 degrees before the wing starts to drop (to 40 degrees above the horizon), that is 2 points. If the nose is at 10 degrees (above the horizon) and the nose drops 20 degrees (to 10 degrees below the horizon) the downgrade is guess what?? 2 points just like before. 2 - Dropping wing in one direction then "forcing" the spin in the other direction. As long as the plane stays stalled (and I will happily discuss how this is very possible) and the total errors do not exceed 90 degrees, then this is NOT a zero. Along with "forcing" the spin in a certain direction after the nose starts to drop this is a classic sign of a forced entry which is downgraded per the normal rules of 0.5 points per 5 degrees. So if the plane drops the nose and the left wing simultaneously and the wing drops 20 degrees before the pilot "forces" the spin in the other direction, the downgrade is 2 points, NOT A ZERO. 3 - The plane does not stop, i.e., it continues to move forward. THERE IS NOT CRITERIA FOR THE PLANE TO STOP FORWARD MOTION in the spin. Now things can get ugly in a hurry. Say the entry line deviated 10 degrees in track, 10 degrees on climb and the lateral track was off 10 degrees. The pilot is starting with a 7 now. Plane stalls. Nose drops 10 degrees before the left wing drops. That is another 1 point off. Then the pilot forces the spin to the right after the left wing has dropped 10 degrees. That is another point. He now has a 5. Plane over rotates the spin by 10 degrees. Minus 1 more point (=4). And let's say the downline after the spin was 10 degrees off the vertical. Minus 1 more point for a 3 now. Then the pilot pulls the exit and that line is climbing 10 degrees, and off track laterally by 10 degrees with a 10 degree bank to the wings. Minus 3 more points. And THAT'S a ZERO!! The point is that judged correctly it is very easy to lose LOTS of points in a hurry. Let's not try to make up stuff or invent new rules.

So, when will YOU consider the "forward mush" to no longer be a spin but flying forward after a stall break, then forced into an autorotation later on? No one has ever answered this for me, not even at seminars, but it definitley goes past what the "Spirit" of the manuvers description dictates.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by excelpoint
	Babflyer you are correct, the plane does not have to be stopped to be stalled but from what I could see in the vid is that the plane FLEW forward after the stall before tipping into the spin, thus the plane was no longer in a stalled state.

"Stalled" flight does NOT mean the aircraft comes to a halt in the air. It never has meant that.

The term "Stall" refers to the stalling of airflow over the wings shape, which reduces lift and causes the wing to no longer fly. Any time you see someone doing a harrier, the wings are stalled at high AOA, yet the plane is moving along pretty well at 5-15 mph usually.

With sufficient head wind the plane's relative airspeed may never be low enough to allow the wings to stall while it is moving forward relative to the ground. By the same token, with a 30 mph tailwind, the plane may "Stall" going 40 mph relative to the ground observor, and you will see the plane enter a spin as it passes by at a pretty good clip. The wings are still stalled, but YOU see the plane moving.

It's confusing, but people who KNOW what they are looking at take the wind into consideration and can judge the manuver properly.

As I mentioned in the video, Downwind spins are very difficult to judge, and fly properly, due to this phenomenon. What to look for in this aspect of the spin was also related. The plane may have flown forward after the break. . it may also have been a proper spin. You decide. That's why the video is up there. There were about 15 downwind spins to look at. Most were intentionally botched.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by babflyer
	;As far as hammerheads I found it easier to just strive for high scores but not perfection as you can find yourself with a 0 here also for a tailslide. And I can't believe how many 7's are given for blatent flyovers that should be 0's I actually didn't get one judge to agree on a 0 last year for a flyover and thats just for the actual pivot let alone all the points that should have been lost for the 45 degree angle on the vertical and down lines. Jimc-md posted some of my thoughts I guess, its just funny how the written rule can be taken so seriosly on the spin for the auto 0 but other fugures that mathmatically should be a 0 wind up 7's lol. Oh well, we all try to fly in a manner that we think will give us the best score and we all try to do our best in the judges chair. Overall the cream normally rises to the top I would say just not always.

Babflyer, you have to remember, the judge is usually holding a clipboard in one hand, and a pen in the other. It's hard to count on your fingers and get higher than a 3-point downgrade when you have to hold the clipboard and pen.

I've taken to going barefoot when judging, so I can count on my toes as well. It really helps with the more significant downgrads. . . .

[Andy540T]

	Quote: Originally Posted by KrisW
	Babflyer, you have to remember, the judge is usually holding a clipboard in one hand, and a pen in the other. It's hard to count on your fingers and get higher than a 3-point downgrade when you have to hold the clipboard and pen. I've taken to going barefoot when judging, so I can count on my toes as well. It really helps with the more significant downgrads. . . .

Good thing we are limited to 10 points per figure.

[excelpoint]

	Quote: Originally Posted by KrisW
	"Stalled" flight does NOT mean the aircraft comes to a halt in the air. It never has meant that. The term "Stall" refers to the stalling of airflow over the wings shape, which reduces lift and causes the wing to no longer fly. Any time you see someone doing a harrier, the wings are stalled at high AOA, yet the plane is moving along pretty well at 5-15 mph usually. With sufficient head wind the plane's relative airspeed may never be low enough to allow the wings to stall while it is moving forward relative to the ground. By the same token, with a 30 mph tailwind, the plane may "Stall" going 40 mph relative to the ground observor, and you will see the plane enter a spin as it passes by at a pretty good clip. The wings are still stalled, but YOU see the plane moving. It's confusing, but people who KNOW what they are looking at take the wind into consideration and can judge the manuver properly. As I mentioned in the video, Downwind spins are very difficult to judge, and fly properly, due to this phenomenon. What to look for in this aspect of the spin was also related. The plane may have flown forward after the break. . it may also have been a proper spin. You decide. That's why the video is up there. There were about 15 downwind spins to look at. Most were intentionally botched.

Thanks for the theory lesson Kris, thats why in the quote you used of mine I stated I thought the plane FLEW forward after the stall, not harriered, not move forward in a stalled state but continued forward flight in a non stalled condition. As Ive stated that is just my observation from the video. Maybe if I was there with actuale ground,horizon etc references it would be different.

[Flyinrazrback]

Maybe we should just ask IMAC to take spins out of all the sequences lol

[rcdart]

	Quote: Originally Posted by KrisW
	"Stalled" flight does NOT mean the aircraft comes to a halt in the air. It never has meant that. The term "Stall" refers to the stalling of airflow over the wings shape, which reduces lift and causes the wing to no longer fly. Any time you see someone doing a harrier, the wings are stalled at high AOA, yet the plane is moving along pretty well at 5-15 mph usually. With sufficient head wind the plane's relative airspeed may never be low enough to allow the wings to stall while it is moving forward relative to the ground. By the same token, with a 30 mph tailwind, the plane may "Stall" going 40 mph relative to the ground observor, and you will see the plane enter a spin as it passes by at a pretty good clip. The wings are still stalled, but YOU see the plane moving. It's confusing, but people who KNOW what they are looking at take the wind into consideration and can judge the manuver properly. As I mentioned in the video, Downwind spins are very difficult to judge, and fly properly, due to this phenomenon. What to look for in this aspect of the spin was also related. The plane may have flown forward after the break. . it may also have been a proper spin. You decide. That's why the video is up there. There were about 15 downwind spins to look at. Most were intentionally botched.

Perfect example is to go and watch full size, I think from memory an S1 pitts stalls at about 65kts, hardly expect it to have zero ground speed.
I have seen IMAC judges zero spins as being forced, and when asked why, they have stated that the plane did not stop.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by rcdart
	Perfect example is to go and watch full size, I think from memory an S1 pitts stalls at about 65kts, hardly expect it to have zero ground speed. I have seen IMAC judges zero spins as being forced, and when asked why, they have stated that the plane did not stop.

The only problem with the "plane didn't stop" aspect of this is that many of these planes CAN stop in a mild headwind before they drop a wing, which is kind of cool, but makes the judges lax in their assessment of what is actually going on with the plane. They grow to expect the plane to almost stop before it drops into the spin, and when they don't see that out of a particular plane they automatically call it a "force".

That's yet one more thing to add to the F&JG to help clear up yet another misconception about spins.

So far, in this thread, we have uncovered several "myths" concerning spins, flying and judging them, that the F&JG does not address in any way.

thank God it's much easier to judge Snaps. .

[Shawn Berkheimer]

	Quote: Originally Posted by KrisW
	Babflyer, you have to remember, the judge is usually holding a clipboard in one hand, and a pen in the other. It's hard to count on your fingers and get higher than a 3-point downgrade when you have to hold the clipboard and pen.

In 10 years I have been involved in IMAC I have never seen this happen. Each judge is supposed to have a scribe who writes down the scores and if time permits some notes for the pilot. The only thing the judge should have in his hand is a copy of the sequence being flown.


Shawn

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Shawn Berkheimer
	In 10 years I have been involved in IMAC I have never seen this happen. Each judge is supposed to have a scribe who writes down the scores and if time permits some notes for the pilot. The only thing the judge should have in his hand is a copy of the sequence being flown. Shawn

Shawn. .DUDE .. . in the SE the judges not only scribe for themselves, they also fetch their own drinks, make up the flight orders, hog tie the CD to keep him out of the way, and if necessary hold the TX for the pilot while he recovers from almost planting his plane on a low pullout. . .

Whats with the rest of IMAC. . SCRIBES???? We don' need no steenkeen SCRIBES ! ! ! If you haven't memorized EVERY sequence in every class prior to getting in the chair, you're just not qualified to judge in the SE. Notes for the pilot??? You are kidding me, right?? Who has time to talk to pilots when the next guy is in the box within 30 seconds of the last guy finishing his sequences?? What you gonna tell him .. "I'm sorry Mr. Pilot, but your spin got a zero, your roller was so bad it had negative numbers, and you really ought to be flying 2 classes lower." ?? After you get out of Basic you should kinda know what you're doing, right?

My god, what a novel concept. .Scribes, notes, talking to pilots. Next we'll have Depends for the senior flyers and pretty girls delivering the refreshments between sequences.

Next thing you will want us to use the fansy schmancy "tick sticks" for counting off the downgrades. Here in the SE we just do it in our head. Most guys can count to 5, so it helps keep things even, unless they try to do rithmetic at the same time and subtract those numbers. Then it usually resorts to 7's and 8's. Math can be tough, ya know.

Nope, here in the SE we are hard core kinda IMAC flyers. . none of that Left coast stuff for us.