Spins -- Final Chapter

[Judge]

I would simply refuse to fly above Sportsman if the judges did not have scribes. Even Basic should not be done without them. And I can tell you that there is no way you can judge either Advanced or Unlimited properly without a scribe. But then what do I know?

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Shawn Berkheimer
	I still see this answer as a contradiction. Sure you may be able to remember the scores in order and keep the deductions for the manuvers being flown in your head as well but my reply has to be " WHY ". Scribes are not difficult to find. In the SW the CD puts together a matrix of judges and scribes. In privious posts you seem genuinly concerned about the quality of judging we have yet are disregarding a tool that we have available to improve judging quality. Not to mention that if we use some of the lower classes pilots as scribes it is a great learning tool for them. Shawn

Okay . .how many people attend an IMAC contest?

I don;t know what kind of a meat grinder you expect to have at an IMAC contest with 25-30 people, but down here things are much more relaxed.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Judge
	I would simply refuse to fly above Sportsman if the judges did not have scribes. Even Basic should not be done without them. And I can tell you that there is no way you can judge either Advanced or Unlimited properly without a scribe. But then what do I know?

Bill. . . .you should have a scribe.

Wait, do you fly above Sportsman??

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Judge
	Funny thing is that people automatically assume that the zero was the wrong score. In my experience it is usually the guy who scored you that screwed up. Accept the present and move along!!

It all depends on how much of an "expert" the judge who scored the Zero thinks he is. Maybe he actually didn't know what he was doing. . maybe he was waiting for the plane to stop in midair before it dropped the nose .. . maybe his scribe read the manuver wrong to him. . maybe he thought that if it mushed forward it was an automatic zero because the wing and nose didn't drop simultaneously within .005 second of eachother. .maybe (God forbid) he made a mistake.

[Shawn Berkheimer]

	Quote: Originally Posted by KrisW
	Okay . .how many people attend an IMAC contest? I don;t know what kind of a meat grinder you expect to have at an IMAC contest with 25-30 people, but down here things are much more relaxed.

I suppose you haven't read the report on the Bakerfield contest. Every round of every class had a scribe. I sat in the chair when sportsman flew ( 21 pilots I think ). Whenever I gave a pilot a zero they also got a note on the score sheet to as why. It was as easy as saying " Zero, wing over " or " Zero, over rotate past 90 degrees ". I even gave them a note to help them improve the airspace control score. We got through all 50 some odd pilots around 6:30 on Saturday and were on the road by 4:00 on Sunday. Everyone seemed to have a good time and I did not hear of a single score being questioned. Personally I agree with Bill ( Trust me a first ) when it comes my time to fly, if the judge dosen't have a scribe, I'm going to land until he does have one.

Shawn

[Shawn Berkheimer]

	Quote: Originally Posted by KrisW
	It all depends on how much of an "expert" the judge who scored the Zero thinks he is. Maybe he actually didn't know what he was doing. . maybe he was waiting for the plane to stop in midair before it dropped the nose .. . maybe his scribe read the manuver wrong to him. . maybe he thought that if it mushed forward it was an automatic zero because the wing and nose didn't drop simultaneously within .005 second of eachother. .maybe (God forbid) he made a mistake.

Scribes don't read manuvers to judges. They are there to write down what the judges tell them to write and nothing more.

Shawn

[exeter_acres]

Everybody RELAX and take a breath!!!!

Sheesh!

[sweetpea]

Also......the best training (other than judging school) for a "future" judge........SCRIBE.

you can watch higher classes fly, and if you have a "nice" judge they explain deductions as they make them. You can also practice your own score taking in your mind and see how close you are to a certified judge.

I wouldn't judge without a scribe for this simple reason. A chance to pass on knowledge of judging and flying at the same time.

[torquen]

	Quote: Originally Posted by KrisW
	There's no such thing as Ex-Marines. We just put the uniform away until it's needed again. Someday I'll tell you about the fool who "confronted me" with a pistol, and tried to carjack me. It was not pretty.

Oh please spare me the laughter!!! My gawd I feel like I'm watching Steven Segual write here on the Flying Giants.

Shawn, make sure if we ever head to the East Coast we don't have Kris W judging us OK!!! Not only would I feel violated by the wrong amount of points deducted but I would worry he messed up on his memorization of where my points were to be placed on my score sheet and the score was not placed in the right maneuver with the right K factor.

Kris, Judge has a ton of experience as a judge. He is one of the hardest judges in our region but that does not bother me one bit. I know from watching him judge and seeing the results that he is the same across the board with all the pilots. He does not seem to "Favor" a pilot. He is also sharp enough to catch some of those over rotations that are so fast in Unlimited that most people never catch them. I don't remember what class judge fly's but that truly does not matter. I don't think those 60 year old women that are judging the Olympic figure skating could do any of the figures either but they are judging.

Like Shawn said, the west coast has a huge number of pilots attending the events. Not only do we get through 50-80 pilots at our contest with numerous flights per day but we also have lunch, raffle, free style, awards ect and get out of the field on time each event. And it does not feel like cattle herding at our events. Everything seems to flow and the pilots are very aware what they are to do and when they are to do it.

Garrett

[excelpoint]

Kris, Its funny how you say you "find dead spots with level lines" to look away from the sequence. There is no such thing as a dead spot during an IMAC sequence, you are being judged from the minute you call in the box to the minute you call sequence finished. If you are looking away then you are not being fair to all competitors. You may miss one slight half point or full point deduction on a straight line that could be the difference between a win or a loss in a close comp. Scribes are a must.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by excelpoint
	Kris, Its funny how you say you "find dead spots with level lines" to look away from the sequence. There is no such thing as a dead spot during an IMAC sequence, you are being judged from the minute you call in the box to the minute you call sequence finished. If you are looking away then you are not being fair to all competitors. You may miss one slight half point or full point deduction on a straight line that could be the difference between a win or a loss in a close comp. Scribes are a must.

Don't blink. Don't look at the Aresti diagram for the next manuver (especially on an Unknown), and the point about a half point deduction is pretty silly considering many judges miss entire 2-3 point deductions as a matter of course. The plethora of 7's and 8's reflects this.

You guys are REALLY missing my sarcasm here. . . . . . (YES, Shawn, the scribe does not call for the judge. . maybe. . it depends on the quality of the judge)

Uh. . Garrett. .it's Steven SEGAL, and his style of martial arts is kind of. . .well. . . bland (It's almost amazing how Hollywood can enthrall people with Ju Jitsu). And coming to Bill's defense is not necessary. After all, he calls himself THE "Judge", so he must be capable of at least quoting the rule book for us. It would be nice to know what class he flies in, though. I'm sure he can answer all by himself.

Back to spins and judging and whatever else. .

Everyone looks away from the aircraft at some point or another. (Yes, you really do). whether or not you have a scribe does not affect the "fairness" of the competition. I'm sure Fred and Julie, Wayne (SE judging coordinator), Stan (SE regional director till this year) and other high-ranking IMAC members I've sat next to in the judges chairs would agree. It's nice to have a scribe, and we do try to get them into the chairs, but when you have 25 people at a Meet, 4 are in the chairs, and 15 are flying that round in one of the two classes, who is going to scribe, run score sheets, and perhaps fix their planes if they had a problem?

Shawn, your "21 people in sportsman" comment is very indicative, if you take the time to look at what you said. You probably have much larger turnouts, which means your pool of people with the need to learn to judge is much larger and readily available than in other Regions. I loved to scribe, since it allowed me to learn the ropes and I considered it doing my part in the process of flying and judging. It also taught me a lot, especially what NOT to do.

But, by the same token, a small turnout means the Judges are going to go it alone. They should be able to handle that. Some may actually prefer it. You can always institute a rules change if you like, that requires scribes at all times. Really it's up to the CD, though. And you are always welcome, as Bill so forcefully suggested, to just not fly.

Here's a question for you. . What if you only had 5 people who were not flying in the two classes on the lines for that round? I've seen it several times. Who scribes? Is it fair to someone getting ready to fly to yank them across the field to scribe the line they are not flying on? Is it fair to their fellow competitors if they are the one writing down anyone else scores? Sometimes there is just no really good answer, so you do the best you can with the resources available to you.

[excelpoint]

	Quote: Originally Posted by KrisW
	Don't blink.

Come on mate I thought you would of had a better response then that. I didnt expect a better one just thought you might.