Spins -- Final Chapter

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by excelpoint
	Come on mate I thought you would of had a better response then that. I didnt expect a better one just thought you might.

Look UP ^^^^^^

[Judge]

	Quote: Originally Posted by KrisW
	After all, he calls himself THE "Judge", so he must be capable of at least quoting the rule book for us. It would be nice to know what class he flies in, though. I'm sure he can answer all by himself.

Actually it is just simply "Judge" not THE Judge. Just as you are "KrisW" and not "THE KrisW". Although one does wonder about your old nom de plume of "Demigod"

Demigod: a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine rank. • figurative a person who is greatly admired or feared.

Oh well, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

As far as my competition class. I fly Intermediate, although I am not clear what that has to do with the discussion about rules, contest procedures, etc.

What I can tell you that seems more germane to the discussion is that I have personally run 27 large scale aerobatic contests (40+ pilots), helped run several more, written a very large number of Known and Unknown sequences, chair the IMAC Rules and Standards Committee, been involved in the re-write of the 2007-2008 rules, worked on previous rules revisions, advised on sequence construction, authored IMAC Known Sequences (2005 Intermediate) and judged so many times that I have lost count. On top of that I have also tried to do a bit of flying here and there, and have always done reasonably well when holding the transmitter.

So Kris, I submit that while I may not fly in a class that you deem sufficient to allow my statements to be worthy of consideration, I am in fact qualified and experienced about the things which I speak.

[Dangerous Dan]

In Highschool we had a UIL Debate team. They would get a contraveriial topic have a set time to prepare, then debate the issue. I knew some guys that could convinve you the sky was green.

Maby we should start another thread called spin debate "the first chapter", let Judge, KrisW, Shaun B, paffy, and Andy540 each make 1 post, 200 words or less. FG members can read each post and vote as to who presents the best argument, The prize would be the FG Spin Master Title.

[torquen]

Don't worry Judge, I remember Kris acting just like this and ranting and raving about what is wrong when he was flying sportsman. Like you said, the class does not matter.

Dangerous Dan, the only problem with your 200 word debate is I don't think Kris can write anything less than 5 pages long.

Oh, I would like to apologize to everyone that I spelled Steven Segal wrong. I was laughing way to hard thinking of what Kris said about the whole Marine deal.
Garrett

[TeamFlatout]

I am writing a detailed message to the King and Queen of IMAC about eliminating spins from each and every contest. Reason behind my endeavor is becuase they are just to easy to do. After I am done I will e-mail each and every IMAC pilot in the world to sign my petition. I expect everyone to comply with this. Even you Kris!!! After everyone is done signing and returning the e-mail, I will also take this to my local congressman to have him put a law into effect so that nobody is allowed to even gesture what a spin looks like. If I have to I'll even go to the President!!! KAPEEESSSSHHHH!!!!!!!

DO YALLLLL UNDERSTAND THE WORDS THAT ARE COMING OUT OF MY MOUF!!!!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[TeamFlatout]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Dangerous Dan
	In Highschool we had a UIL Debate team. They would get a contraveriial topic have a set time to prepare, then debate the issue. I knew some guys that could convinve you the sky was green. Maby we should start another thread called spin debate "the first chapter", let Judge, KrisW, Shaun B, paffy, and Andy540 each make 1 post, 200 words or less. FG members can read each post and vote as to who presents the best argument, The prize would be the FG Spin Master Title.

LMFAO. That would be the sweetest thread yet.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Judge
	Actually it is just simply "Judge" not THE Judge. Just as you are "KrisW" and not "THE KrisW". Although one does wonder about your old nom de plume of "Demigod" Demigod: a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine rank. • figurative a person who is greatly admired or feared. Oh well, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. As far as my competition class. I fly Intermediate, although I am not clear what that has to do with the discussion about rules, contest procedures, etc. What I can tell you that seems more germane to the discussion is that I have personally run 27 large scale aerobatic contests (40+ pilots), helped run several more, written a very large number of Known and Unknown sequences, chair the IMAC Rules and Standards Committee, been involved in the re-write of the 2007-2008 rules, worked on previous rules revisions, advised on sequence construction, authored IMAC Known Sequences (2005 Intermediate) and judged so many times that I have lost count. On top of that I have also tried to do a bit of flying here and there, and have always done reasonably well when holding the transmitter. So Kris, I submit that while I may not fly in a class that you deem sufficient to allow my statements to be worthy of consideration, I am in fact qualified and experienced about the things which I speak.

A few minor correctison if I may, Bill. .

First of.. that is not my Nom De Plum (no e by the way), it's my Nom De Guer. It also has nothing to do with anything at all, except perhaps as a conversation piece for people who just have to have something to gig you on.


I am THE KrisW, btw. . I realy am. .

Secondly, the only reason I was concerned about which class you fly is due to your statement about classes above Sportsman needing scribes. It's a rather blanket statement, and takes little into account other than perceived difficulty of judging certain manuvers, which is hardly the case.

Third, how many contests you have CD'd means very little. One of my club members has CD'd tons of events, yet he can barely do left turns with anything less stable than a trainer. I'm sure he is not quite up to your flying ability, but as you can see it's not being a CD that realy matters in the great scheme of RC.

No one has ever doubted your knowledge or experience, Bill. . why do you worry about that? It's a given since you were involved with SCAT for many years, as well as the old IMAC Hierarchy out in California before it got moved to the Mid West, that you are qualified to do the things you are involved in.

I find your reaction to a simple question curious. And I assure you, there is no need for me to pit my flying skills, or lack thereof, against you. It would mean little to win, or lose, against you in an aerobatics contest.

As for the entire Spin debate, I'm glad you piped up about the "nose drop" consideration for downgrades. Hardly anyone ever puts that exact information out in exactly that way, and I'm sure it helped a lot of people have a better grasp of PROPER judging of the spin entry. I'd still like your input, however, concerning the "stalled down angle " after the break, but before the wing drops. How long, in your opinion, should the judge allow the plane to progres on this downward path, before the spin becomes a forced spin due to the exaggerated length of the "break"? My personal view, since there is nothing chiselled in stone concerning it, is that the line should be kept as short as possible, and if the plane does not fall into an autorotation in very short order the "spirit" of proper spin entry has been voided, and the manuver is from then on a "Force: and thus, is zeroed.

I asked this before, but you never answered.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Dangerous Dan
	In Highschool we had a UIL Debate team. They would get a contraveriial topic have a set time to prepare, then debate the issue. I knew some guys that could convinve you the sky was green. Maby we should start another thread called spin debate "the first chapter", let Judge, KrisW, Shaun B, paffy, and Andy540 each make 1 post, 200 words or less. FG members can read each post and vote as to who presents the best argument, The prize would be the FG Spin Master Title.

The only real problem with this idea is that Paffy and I tend to agree in principle over the "technical" issues of spin entry, and a couple of the others are pretty close. It would be very difficult to get a good debate, from widely separated viewpoints, if everyone agreed in principle over what was required.

It's only in the "grey area" of the after-break stall into autorotaion, and how long it takes, that there is disagreement . .hardly something to debate over due to the dynamic differences between the conditions for every spin.

[Judge]

	Quote: Originally Posted by KrisW
	A few minor correctison if I may, Bill. . First of.. that is not my Nom De Plum (no e by the way), it's my Nom De Guer.

Oops. My Bad. I was relying on Webster's. They are clearly wrong. I have alerted them to their error. I am certain they will recall all dictionaries in existence to make a correction immediately. Thanks for the heads up!!

nom de plume |ˌnäm də ˈploōm| noun ( pl. noms de plume pronunc. same) a pen name. ORIGIN early 19th cent.: formed in English from French words, to render the sense ‘pen name,’ on the pattern of nom de guerre.

And notice that they (silly dictionary people) do not agree with your spelling of Guer.

Here is what those pesky people have to say:

nom de guerre |ˌnäm də ˈger| noun ( pl. noms de guerre pronunc. same) an assumed name under which a person engages in combat or some other activity or enterprise. ORIGIN French, literally ‘war name.’

Trivial stuff, but I am a bit sticky about incorrect corrections.

	Quote:
	Secondly, the only reason I was concerned about which class you fly is due to your statement about classes above Sportsman needing scribes. It's a rather blanket statement, and takes little into account other than perceived difficulty of judging certain manuvers, which is hardly the case.

Fine. I based my comments on my experience as a CD, competitor, and sequence author. YMMV I guess.

	Quote:
	Third, how many contests you have CD'd means very little. One of my club members has CD'd tons of events, yet he can barely do left turns with anything less stable than a trainer. I'm sure he is not quite up to your flying ability, but as you can see it's not being a CD that realy matters in the great scheme of RC.

Well fine again. YMMV. I find it interesting that you feel that experience doing something directly related to the topics being commented on has little to do with it, but OK.

	Quote:
	No one has ever doubted your knowledge or experience, Bill. . why do you worry about that? It's a given since you were involved with SCAT for many years, as well as the old IMAC Hierarchy out in California before it got moved to the Mid West, that you are qualified to do the things you are involved in.

I don't worry about it. I do sometimes restate it for the benefit of those that are not familiar with my background so they have some idea of the background from which I am making my comments.

	Quote:
	I find your reaction to a simple question curious. And I assure you, there is no need for me to pit my flying skills, or lack thereof, against you. It would mean little to win, or lose, against you in an aerobatics contest.

I have no idea what you are talking about. You were the one who brought up which class I fly. Most people would interpret that as meaning that my skill level as a pilot has some bearing on my comments about judging and contest organization and execution. I guess you meant it differently.

	Quote:
	As for the entire Spin debate, I'm glad you piped up about the "nose drop" consideration for downgrades. Hardly anyone ever puts that exact information out in exactly that way, and I'm sure it helped a lot of people have a better grasp of PROPER judging of the spin entry.

As I said, my comments are drawn directly from the rules and I admonished people to actually use the rules rather than make up their own.

	Quote:
	I'd still like your input, however, concerning the "stalled down angle " after the break, but before the wing drops. How long, in your opinion, should the judge allow the plane to progres on this downward path, before the spin becomes a forced spin due to the exaggerated length of the "break"?

If I understand your hypothetical here we have a plane that has stalled, but the nose has not dropped nor has a wing. It is mushing along with some forward velocity in a descending track.

In that case the deduction is 0.5 points per 5 degrees of downward track prior to the wing dropping. If the plane was mushing vertically (an extreme example to be sure) it would be a zero for that error.

And every wing waggle (which there almost certainly would be) would also get a deduction. Held too long it likely could earn a zero. But it is only through an accumulation of errors and NOT because of some undefined criteria that the zero would be given.

	Quote: