IMAC Points???

[tony-amps]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Jcarte
	Jim, It "was avalible" to everyone in the SE and other regions, I know some guys pulled of the road at a Taco Bell so they could access the internet at the time of registration. I can't find reference in the guildlines that states a contest cannot have a cap. Sorry Tony post #31 Amp's Aerobatics Challenge I hate to thow this one out there but post #23 Clover Creek Aerodrome Invitational IMAC Contest

Let me jump in here. Jeff while I did threaten a cap a cap was never imposed. I did this in an effort to get everyone preregistered. My reasoning for this was to try to get everyone to preregister so there would be no delays in getting the contest started and scoring started. No data entry at the field only collect pilot fees and mark them as paid. All their info is already entered into the scoring system. By the way i have been working this with Vic rice to incorporate this into our standardized registration system. That way you click one button and you have all the pilot data for the scoring system. I have adopted the Score program as the standard . I feel this is the most versatile program to date. My objective is to try to reduce the workload of the cd and score keeper.

Clover creek is another monster. I feel the right decision was made not to count the points.
The way registration was conducted and the announcement of the contest was unfair to all in the southeast.

Triple tree on the other hand has brought an obvious problem to light and that is the contradiction in the Contest guidlines from what is published in our contest regulations. This issue needs to be addressed asap and our contest guide amended. I think that handing unknowns out the morning of is ok as long as you don't have to sit in the judges chair. If you decide to judge you are at a clear disadvantage compared to those that do not have to judge. This may have been the reason for the change in the contest standards.

I agree that the points should count because Stan is following the contest regulations as written.

Its funny how everyone says the rules need to change but not one rfc has been submitted for this rules cycle. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If we do not follow our rules to the letter we will never all be on the same page.....

Tony Fandino

[sweetpea]

	Quote: Originally Posted by psk560
	I don't see where that rule in the AMA guide states you "should" do the day prior. How did you arrive at that assumption? If one guide states that it must be handed out the day before and the other gives choice, isn't that inconsistent? Craig

Because of the word GUIDE. Guide is not Rule. Therefore you do not have to follow it. It is merely a suggestion to be followed so a brand new CD or competitor has a clue on how a contest flow would be.

	Quote: Originally Posted by Radioactive
	Looks pretty clear to me...16.3A, thus the reason i ruled the triple tree contest is legal,stands as is. I don't really understand what the discsussion is on here.Stan, has made it clear... unknows will start friday, and be handed out friday am, for a friday pm unknown flight....looks Straight-up to me. Have a Fun,safe weekend, remember alot of men and women have made the ultimate sacrifice so we all may enjoy our freedoms! Honor our fallen heros, and our heros that are currently serving!

To me, Stan has done what is required by handing out unknowns the day prior or day of. He is just letting folks know which of these he is doing.



Remember.....IMAC is a SIG. Problem we have is that it is sanctioned under AMA and AMA rules are used. You must be sanctioned to have the extra insurance(if you need it) and Per IMAC it must be sanctioned under AMA for it to count as an IMAC event. IMAC has its own guidelines and some rules for the contest to be included in IMAC regional points. Most of these overlap what is already in AMA.

So we have one discrepency, sort-of. AMA states you can do either day prior or day of. IMAC states you can do day of. Since IMAC is a "living breathing document that was not included in the AMA rule book" they should be the one to change, to match AMA.

But lets look further. In the SW region there is no discount for an IMAC member but under minimum requirements it states there will be a discount for IMAC members in the entry fee. Every IMAC contest has counted in the SW regional points for the last 3 yrs I flew there, including the SW Regional Championship contest. Yet 99% of those contests gave no discount and most didnt' even ask if you were an IMAC member. They all still counted


It also states that you can waiver rules thru AMA or IMAC. Since this one particular rule does not need an AMA waiver, I guess you can go to IMAC BOD and do that. But I think even IMAC would have a hard time denying the contest as valid when the SANCTIONED BODY RULES ARE BEING FOLLOWED.

It just so happens that IMAC is making the rule more restrictive.


If you really want to see it changed simply ask the IMAC BOD to look into changing it. Most likely it was written that way because that is how its always been done regardless of the AMA rule being less restrictive. I'm sure it wasn't written to be do it our way, not the AMA way.

[tony-amps]

	Quote: Originally Posted by sweetpea
	Because of the word GUIDE. Guide is not Rule. Therefore you do not have to follow it. It is merely a suggestion to be followed so a brand new CD or competitor has a clue on how a contest flow would be. To me, Stan has done what is required by handing out unknowns the day prior or day of. He is just letting folks know which of these he is doing. Remember.....IMAC is a SIG. Problem we have is that it is sanctioned under AMA and AMA rules are used. You must be sanctioned to have the extra insurance(if you need it) and Per IMAC it must be sanctioned under AMA for it to count as an IMAC event. IMAC has its own guidelines and some rules for the contest to be included in IMAC regional points. Most of these overlap what is already in AMA. So we have one discrepency, sort-of. AMA states you can do either day prior or day of. IMAC states you can do day of. Since IMAC is a "living breathing document that was not included in the AMA rule book" they should be the one to change, to match AMA. But lets look further. In the SW region there is no discount for an IMAC member but under minimum requirements it states there will be a discount for IMAC members in the entry fee. Every IMAC contest has counted in the SW regional points for the last 3 yrs I flew there, including the SW Regional Championship contest. Yet 99% of those contests gave no discount and most didnt' even ask if you were an IMAC member. They all still counted It also states that you can waiver rules thru AMA or IMAC. Since this one particular rule does not need an AMA waiver, I guess you can go to IMAC BOD and do that. But I think even IMAC would have a hard time denying the contest as valid when the SANCTIONED BODY RULES ARE BEING FOLLOWED. It just so happens that IMAC is making the rule more restrictive. If you really want to see it changed simply ask the IMAC BOD to look into changing it. Most likely it was written that way because that is how its always been done regardless of the AMA rule being less restrictive. I'm sure it wasn't written to be do it our way, not the AMA way.

Imac created the SIG of scale aerobatics and drafted the contest regulations for that SIG not the ama. I agree that the guide may need to be corrected.

[tony-amps]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Jim Woodward
	Hey Jeff, Downhumpty asked for more discussion so I gave my opinion. When you cap the classes for a National/Invitational special event like this, I think this falls outside the realm of a typical local contest where a CD like Tony hints at a cap. We are all extremely lucky to be flying IMAC at the birth of this event, for the hard work many people are putting into it, which looks to capture much or more of what the TOC had while opening it up to us mortal pilots too. I'm just surprised the points is such an issue considering there are so many other contest we can go to that are not capped, especially for the South East. I would have thought people would be more upset about the "National's" points not being counted, versus this Invitational/National-level/privately sponsored event. Thanks, Jim

Jim,

I need to correct you here the nats this year will count towards our points championships.

Please Read :
Standardized Regional Points Rules Proposal

Any competitor that wishes to qualify for regional points must be an IMAC member in good standing. If a competitor joins mid-season, only contests attended from that point on will qualify for regional points.

The Competition Season will run from January 1 through December 31, and will include all five classes - Basic through Unlimited. The Regional Points Championship will be based on points earned from the top six (6) contests for each individual contestant.

Points per contest will be calculated from the contest’s final results. The winner of each class will receive 1000 points. The following competitor’s scores will be a normalized score based on their final score respective to the winner’s. Regional Points are rounded to the nearest whole number.

Example: First Place: 6875 Points: 1000
Second: 6723 978
Third: 6145 894
Fourth: 5475 796

In addition, a multiplier of five (5) will be added to the points based on the number of competitors beaten. In the example cited above, considering these are the only four persons in the respective class, the following points are added to the total:

First Place 1000 + (5 X 3=15) = 1015
Second 978 + (5 X 2=10) = 988
Third 894 + (5 X 1= 5) = 899
Fourth 796 + (5 X 0= 0) = 796

Qualified contests will be those listed in the IMAC contest calendar shown on the IMAC website under their respective regions. Contests must comply with IMAC standards and must have their results verified and posted within 14 days to count towards Regional Points.

A competitor may receive points for his/her region, as well as two contests outside of his or her region. The AMA Scale Aerobatics NATS may count as one of the out of region contests.

The “Regional Championship”, as denoted by the respective Regional Director, will count for 150% of the normal point’s value towards the region’s point’s championship.

In case of a tie for class champion, the pilot with the highest average finish among his/her 6 contests would win. If it is still tied, the number of pilots finished ahead of, in all 6 contests, will determine the champion.

If a pilot is the only competitor in his/her class, points will be awarded to that competitor only if a complete contest is flown as set forth by the contest standards guide.

A pilot will not be eligible for regional awards in more than one category. If a pilot moves into a higher competition class during the year, any points earned in the lower competition class will not be carried into the new class. The pilot will only be eligible to compete for points in the higher class.

Plaques will be awarded for first through third place in each class.

For the purpose of Regional Points, if a Basic-class competitor places first, second or, third in the Regional Points total, regardless if the competitor has not placed in enough Basic contests to move up, the competitor must move to the Sportsman class in the 2009 season. In the event that the competitor doesn’t move up, any points earn in the following years will not count toward the Regional Championship.

The Season Point Title Challenge awards will be funded through entry fees. A $3.00 fee for each competitor in all classes will be sent by the Contest Director to the RD or IMAC Treasurer for a contest to be included in the season point system. At the discretion of the Regional Director, fees not received within two (2) weeks of the contest date may result in the disqualification of points towards the season point tally from that contest.

Any competitor my petition the appropriate Regional Directors or BOD to change his/her home region. These requests must be made yearly in writing, and are considered on a case by case basis.
Updated on Saturday, March 01, 2008





Tony Fandino

[bodywerks]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Jim Woodward
	Guys, I'm surprised how much passionate discussion there is on this topic. In my humble opinion, the very decision to cap the classes - thus making the contest "not available" to every South East pilot, in effect determined that it cannot be counted towards SE points. All other issues aside from inception till present, the prevailing factor is that it is not open to every South East pilot by design & intent of the primary sponsor. Not in a million years could this be counted for the South East points - should never have carried on this far. IMHO. Jim

Okay, first off...LOVE your avitar!
2nd off, the original topic of this thread was not about what you brought up. Even though everything else here, and in what you post are valid concerns, it seems that the root issue (the topic of this thread) still has not been cleared up...
I thought I saw someone post that the points issue, pertaining to getting points for beating non-imac competitors, that or points have been added back on the IMAC website. Did I miss this, or read it somewhere else, because my points still do not give me credit for the all contestants I beat.

[tony-amps]

	Quote: Originally Posted by bodywerks
	Okay, first off...LOVE your avitar! 2nd off, the original topic of this thread was not about what you brought up. Even though everything else here, and in what you post are valid concerns, it seems that the root issue (the topic of this thread) still has not been cleared up... I thought I saw someone post that the points issue, pertaining to getting points for beating non-imac competitors, that or points have been added back on the IMAC website. Did I miss this, or read it somewhere else, because my points still do not give me credit for the all contestants I beat.

BW,

Yes you are so right this thread has morphed into something else other than the original topic.
Maybe a new thread is in order.

As to the original topic the points were corrected, but everyone must realize that the bonus system for pilots you beat has been around for years, just never in the running total. The only time it was a deciding factor was in case of a tie. So no one should be surprised that the points are being included in the running total now. It saves time for the guy's that have to administrate the points for each region.

tony

[Downhumpty]

	Quote: Originally Posted by tony-amps
	Let me jump in here. Jeff while I did threaten a cap a cap was never imposed. I did this in an effort to get everyone preregistered. My reasoning for this was to try to get everyone to preregister so there would be no delays in getting the contest started and scoring started. No data entry at the field only collect pilot fees and mark them as paid. All their info is already entered into the scoring system. By the way i have been working this with Vic rice to incorporate this into our standardized registration system. That way you click one button and you have all the pilot data for the scoring system. I have adopted the Score program as the standard . I feel this is the most versatile program to date. My objective is to try to reduce the workload of the cd and score keeper. Clover creek is another monster. I feel the right decision was made not to count the points. The way registration was conducted and the announcement of the contest was unfair to all in the southeast. Triple tree on the other hand has brought an obvious problem to light and that is the contradiction in the Contest guidlines from what is published in our contest regulations. This issue needs to be addressed asap and our contest guide amended. I think that handing unknowns out the morning of is ok as long as you don't have to sit in the judges chair. If you decide to judge you are at a clear disadvantage compared to those that do not have to judge. This may have been the reason for the change in the contest standards. I agree that the points should count because Stan is following the contest regulations as written. Its funny how everyone says the rules need to change but not one rfc has been submitted for this rules cycle. Please correct me if I am wrong. If we do not follow our rules to the letter we will never all be on the same page..... Tony Fandino

Tony,
I will start with the statement above that I highlighted. Maybe the points for the Clover Creek Contest should not count... But not for the reason you stated above in your post. Joe Cutright had an email sent out to all IMAC members. I repeat ALL! At the same time. If you or any other IMAC member did not receive this email then you may want to go to the IMAC web site, sign in then click on your name and check the email address you provided. Mr. Vance told me that a lot of members will not update their membership information and by not doing so suffers from not receiving email blast. I can assure you and everyone else that Alex and I both receive the email that was sent.

For the members thinking of sending in a RFA (Request for Action) they are located here. http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=205 Be sure to follow the instructions to the tee! You must be signed in to the web site to be able to retrieve the link above. Please take time to look at the RFA Status also.

On the unknowns.... As a CD I will randomly draw the unknown flight order and I make the statement (not always, but most of the time) that if the assigned judges are pulled to fly first I will move them down in the flight order. There is no rule that says we as Cd's have to do this, I just adopted it from experience.


I have attended 26 IMAC contest in the 5 years I have competed. I have yet been to a contest that was ran exactly the same. Some more organized than others. However, none of them where conducted outside the realm of the General Rules or the Flying and Judging Guide. That in itself has a lot to say for IMAC as a whole.

Tony, great achievement on getting Vice Rice to create a file that is compatible with "score". That will really come in handy to the Cd's and or score keepers that decide to utilize it.

OK guys, don't hold back... the comments received can be used as a tool to help better IMAC as a whole. If your thoughts are not known they can not be put use.

Kent Porter

[Jim Woodward]

Tony - I'm not going to quote your post due to its length. But thank you for pointing out that the Nats for 2008 will count as one of two possible out-of-region contests.
Jimbo

[tony-amps]

Kent,

What are you trying to say ? That this is the way we should run registration for all our contest ?
I hope not. Whats really is the question is who new what and when they new it .

tony

[tony-amps]

Another thing everyone needs to know. Now if you file an RFA it will not be addressed till the next rules cycle. If you were to file an rfa now it would need to go strait to ama and would not get the review of our BOD. Which would be totally counter productive.

[Downhumpty]

	Quote: Originally Posted by tony-amps
	Kent, What are you