An open letter to IMAC

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Xipp
	Kris, I find your whole complaint to be a mirrior image of how you judged at the 2004 nats, Remember where you were running around blowing your hole that you were and i quote"I AM THE IRON JUDGE" and how messed up the scoring got? Do you remeber how flying had to stop to fix the unreal scores you were giving to pilots you did not care for?..Remember Kris i scribed for you and i saw all this with my own 2 eyes.....I am not trying to start a fight with you just a solid reminder that you my friend are not infalable yourself. I would think that a proper course of action would be to educate some of these people and not waste the time or effort to whine about it. Kris you seem to have a way of starting BS on these online chats that is why you have been banned from RCU Twice so now the crying comes to the giants. It happens at all IMAC events i myself have been on the end of bad judging but never have i gotten so upset as to come on a internet flying site and whine about it I think if you are quilified to hold a judging school which i personaly do not think you are then you should take anna's advice and do it and use your time in a more productive manner..Bottomline is if IMAC is so bad stop flying it and move on or learn to deal with it Mr Perfect... Sorry for the pissed off nature of this post but Kris needs to learn how to use the net for more productive things then to cry about the same things he has been guilty of

If you are sorry for your "pissed off" nature of your reply, then delete it Xipp. . . it's out of place here. Holding me up for character assissination is not addressing the problems I put forth. Calling into question my willingness to Zero manuvers for "Named" pliots, because the other judges could not see through the "Halo effect", even under intense pressure not to do so, shows where you want to go with this.

Biff is much closer to the mark than you could ever hope to be with your statement, Xipp. At least I have the guts to bring it way out into the open, and wake people up to it. Perhaps, now, it will get solved, or at least improved.

As I have said elsewhere on this "open letter" (in other places) . ..what bothers me most about the inconsistency of judging, is that I have NO clear idea of how well I am actually flying, from another qualified persons point of view. I can receive high scores, but when I received them I KNOW I didn't fly that well, so why give me such scores, and why weren't the Judges watching and seeing the deviations I saw myself? In contrast, manuvers I know I flew well, got downgraded, and the same held true for the other guy in my class, who was also calling for me and said the same thing concerning both my scores, and his own.

When you have two pilots, facing off over a silly piece of wood, but who are both honest about how the flights and sequences are going, and how they messed up certain manuvers and nailed others, and BOTH agree 100% of the time, and then the judges say differently. . .you don't just shrug your shoulders, chock it all up to Fate and Luck, and just wander about smartly, or grin and grab your plaque and hug it ..

You step up, take the hits from the detractors, and set forth things in motion to rectify the situation so that future pilots will have it better, and so that you yourself will have confidence that the guys sitting in the chair actually have their game on, and that you can trust their scoring for EVERYONE.

BTW. . David and I agreed . .the LAST pair of judges we had gave us a decent scoring job. . . they hit me with a Zero for my goofed Goldfish (the score sheets show crossed out 7's. . . darn . . .they got me), and for a spin entry I KNEW was good (okay . .that made me mad), but at the same time, David and I split the round, because he goofed up some stuff as well. We both agreed that it was the only decent judging we'd had all day. I can handle the questionable call on the spin entry. . . barely .. It was fair, and a judgement call. . David and I are both sure that we received decent-good judging that round.

So, there are good judges out there. Just not enough of them.

[Boulder]

Very well said Biffy,

I would have to say there aspects of your dissertation that could be utilized in all arenas of precision flight.

[Yakster]

	Quote: Originally Posted by bosshoss
	this thread is great, it will help those that are considering wasting thier dough on this amateur competition, with uneven judging, to go have fun somewhere else. who would want to be a part of this mess?? I mean , why get into this if you could be robbed , or padded, depending on who or what you know?? those that get padded might like it, they might have sponsors to please, those that get robbed, if they are privateers, might pack it in and just go fly. eh? this is broke, fix it, or the bad rep will kill it, IMHO.

From these other posts, it seems you have ZERO experience with IMAC.... in that case... how can you judge something you have never done, have no experience with, and have no idea what you are talking about. It is people like you that keep people from trying things because you talk out of your ass. Do everyone a favor and stick to topics you know about, not what you THINK you know.

As for the rest of the posts. I agree that judging can very greatly between judges and people, this is going to happen in anything. I think the important thing is consistancy. One judge may think the manuever is a 6, and the other thinks its an 8, as long as they are applying the same thought processes and principles, they should be atleast on the same page. I agree that there is always room for improvement, but with the limited number of people willing to judge, and the limited number of education resources, change is going to be a long and hard process. How about instead of writing to the IMAC, being proactive and starting that change. Start a thread here in the IMAC section, perhaps a weekly article on different aspects of judging criteria. All titled in different threads like a reference guide. Im sure getting approval to use some of what Fred has put togethor to post on here wouldnt be hard either. Its like politics in this country, dont complain about it, get up and do something about it!

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by 50%plane
	Hmm, this thread is very interesting. As a pilot interested in flying IMAC, it may not be in the best interest of IMAC for this kind of stuff to be posted. Right or wrong, I don't doubt that this goes on in any major form of competition. Kris, when's your judging seminar? I'd love to attend if at all possible. I hope to join IMAC next year if I'm not to busy. 50%

My Region has at least one judging seminar each year. We need more than that, though, not in the form of a formalized classroom setting, but in after-hours flight and judging instruction at Meets, possibly on Fridays, or after competition on Saturday. Several of us were discussing that this weekend. . to have sessions where at least the Basic pilots, and any "judges" would be shown how to fly. . properly. . things like lines, angles, proper radii of looping manuvers, and how to judge such things effectively. . . and to do this at several (4-6) centralized competition Meets throughout each year. Once the syllabus was established, it would not only help train and educate the novice flyers and newer judges, it would probably increase attendance at certain Meets because the participants would know they were going to get some extra-credit instruction into things that are not often discussed or debated.

I'll be contacting my RD this week, with a fully developed plan for such an additiion to 6 Meets in the central part of the SE district next year. Hopefully, the Judging seminar will provide a lot of education, and these mini-classrooms will help keep the education going and improve the ability of all involved.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Yakster
	I agree that there is always room for improvement, but with the limited number of people willing to judge, and the limited number of education resources, change is going to be a long and hard process. How about instead of writing to the IMAC, being proactive and starting that change. Start a thread here in the IMAC section, perhaps a weekly article on different aspects of judging criteria. All titled in different threads like a reference guide. Im sure getting approval to use some of what Fred has put togethor to post on here wouldnt be hard either. Its like politics in this country, dont complain about it, get up and do something about it!

Well .. then we are getting outselves into a "Rulebook argument" in most cases, an dthat can become very nasty in short order.

The best thing to do would be to have hands-on sessions, with a plane with about 1-hour of endurance, that can repeatedly flown through the same manuver, and have people practice judging it with an Expert judge telling the students what happened that was both right. . adn wrong .. during the manuver. Using the BASIC sequence would be the best starting point, since it covers most of the spectrum of basic aerobatic manuvers, and would give the simplest view of each manuver in it's purest form. Whether the pilot received 0's or 10's would be up to the "students" who could then grade their own scoring agains the Expert Judges score, and ascertain what they were. . and were not, seeing during the manuvers being watched.

This entire teaching session would involve about 15 minutes of pre-flight instruction into the manuvers being judged, and criteria for them, then have the flight session, and then the after flight debrief and critique of the students.

Doing this at 6 meets throughout a flying season, where most of the pilos in a Region wold be sure to attend at least 1-2 of them, would go a long way towards improving things, and give everyone (even the poor demo pilot) a better ability in Scale Aerobatics. . be it flying. . or judging.

[Rebel]

It's 20% Plane, 5% Engine, and 75% Practice, practice, Practice . . .Excuse me, I'm off to the field.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Rebel
	It's 20% Plane, 5% Engine, and 75% Practice, practice, Practice . . .Excuse me, I'm off to the field.

READ .. and LEARN, Rebel.

[Rebel]

Can you go to the field and practice please.

[BDSBob]

Who is IMAC and why is everyone mad at him?

[toprudder]

Wow.

I flew pattern competitively for about 8 years. Was pretty good at it, at one time. The hardest thing about it -- having to judge. It is a thankless job. Well, the CD would thank me, but no one else!!! I'll be the first to admit that I was far from perfect as a judge.

Fast forward a few years. My son became interested in flying. He learned quickly. We went to Joe Nall, and guess what -- Beavis let my 11 year old son fly an IMAC plane at center stage at the Joe Nall!!! My son was hooked. He could not wait to get an IMAC plane. He entered the Youth Masters (they supply the equipment!!!). He did well. After that, we decided to go to our first IMAC contest in Fayetteville, but our plane was out of commision. We went anyway, just because we wanted to watch and to socialize with some of the great people we met at the Youth Masters. It ends up that one of the guys let my son fly his plane (Thanks, Kent!!!). Again, my son did well. And, we had a blast with all the OTHER activities besides the competition.

What does this have to do with judging? NOTHING. It has to do with why anyone should fly IMAC. If accurate judging (meaning everyone gives the same score as YOU would give) is your ONLY criteria -- don't try IMAC, or Pattern, or any activity where humans are doing the scoring. If, OTOH, you want to improve your flying ability, learn from others that have a common interest, and generally have a good time, try it!!!

There is no such thing as a perfect judge, nor more so than there is such thing as a perfect pilot. Just because I know I am never going to be perfect doesn't mean that I should not try.

You have to remember, the people sitting in the judges chairs most likely would rather be doing something else, but they do it because it is part of the HOBBY. They have to stare into the sun, endure the heat, keep their concentration MUCH LONGER THAN ANY OF THE PILOTS FLYING IN FRONT OF THEM. I teach my son to ALWAYS THANK THE JUDGES AFTER HE FLIES. No matter what his scores look like.

Back when I was flying pattern, I had a USPJA judge downgrade me pretty badly at a local contest. I was planning on going to the NATS that year, and wanted to learn what I was doing wrong. I did not gripe behind his back, or worse, go online and gripe about it. I did not go up to him and ask "why did you downgrade me for this" after the round, I asked him "what do I need to work on". He spent probably an hour with me, telling me what he would downgrade for while other pilots were flying. I began to see some of the mistakes that I had been making, that I did not realize I was making. I became a better pilot -- and a better judge -- after that. If I had the attitude that I was the only person that knew how to judge, and he was all wrong, I would have never done as well as I did at the NATS. And, I would not have made a lifelong friend with that judge.

Is IMAC perfect? Certainly not. Neither is any single person when it comes to judging OR flying. As soon as a judging seminar happens in this area, I will attend it with my son. But, that will never be the end of my learning how to judge, or anyone else, for that matter. It is like flying, you can never achieve perfection, only approach it. And I will NEVER expect anyone that judges to be perfect.

When I flew pattern, I made friends with a lot of great guys -- friendships that have lasted long after I quit flying pattern. After having been to a couple of IMAC events in the SE district, I have every expectation that my son and I will also have that same experience. You know what? The quality of the judging has very little to do with that.

Competition isn't everyone's cup-of-tea. Nothing wrong with that. But, if your reason for not trying it is because you are sure it is unfair or rigged, that is really sad. If I had a choice, I would rather be driving around the race track in last place and swapping paint with the other drivers than to be a fan in the stands, ANY DAY!!!

Bob R.

[Vic3D]

	Quote: Originally Posted by BDSBob
	Who is IMAC and why is everyone mad at him?

LOL!

[KrisW]

Toprudder, no one expects it to be PERFECT.

But, IMAC is not a social-do, or fun-fly either. There's a ton of money, time, sponsorship, effort, and gas burnt each IMAC season, by some pretty serious people. . just to win silly little plaques and trophies.

All that is required is competent judging . by people who can tell when you screw up as well as you can tell yourself, and then can also tell that the borderline manuver was actually done properly .. when it was done properly. I don't think anyone expects great scores all the time, or getting slammed all the time either. But at least. . be accurate to within a point of what actually happened.

All we expect is competence. . then at least everyone has an even playing field.

The problem is lack of competence.