FlyingGiants Keyboard Deathmatch!!

[Judge]

I heard you had a knob de plume. You know, a pencil Di(#.

At least that's the rumor.

And like always, it pays to stay sharp!!

[All Thumbs]

Guys.. I'm asking your indulgance here. Keep an eye on what I say or don't say to either one of these contestants. I certainly wouldn't want either "The Judge" or "The Kris" pissed off at me to the point I'd have to spar with them. I'd just have to take my composite AND my wood and go home. Once there, I'd just have to smash the f*(K out of my computer.

After re-reading this thread, it reminds me of the old song Dizzy! "I'm so dizzy, my head is spinn'n, like a whirlpool, it never ends.. I'm so dizzy."

What ever happend to simple questions like, how do you do a proper spin????

[Judge]

	Quote: Originally Posted by John Murdoch
	GI'd just have to take my composite AND my wood and go home.

Have you tried to get wood with your composite?? Although at some contests even if you win you get a composite trophy. So even many CDs recognize the superiority of composites over wood.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by madmax
	DING DING DING DING! And Judge is on a rampage! KrisW appears to be wobbling on the ropes, he's stammering and looking confused, and in desperation, he's.... he's.... PULLED OUT THE GAY CARD! We haven't seen action like this ever before Biff! Judge isn't taking kindly to this, and closes round 4 with an upper cut of rationality. This will be a 5 round deathmatch as it looks as if a TKO is a distinct possibility! Polls open tonight. LETS GET IT ON!

I think I'll take a break while the MODERATOR decides whether he wants me to debate Judge, or all of Judges Lackeys.

Since nothing substantive has been posted by Judge today, since he obviously can't think of anything germaine having to do with the subject matter, I'll just wait for him to come back to the realm of the debate.

This is a mano e judgeo contest. I'm not here to debate with 2nd stringers.

[madmax]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Judge
	I heard you had a knob de plume. You know, a pencil Di(#.

KrisW is right, you are gay.

[madmax]

Go get'em Krissy! My vote has just been swayed in your favor.

[KrisW]

I will address the "advanced aerobatic flying' aspect of this debate, sine Judge is incapable of that level of aircraft control. I'll be back in a little while with a SUCCINCT, accurate, and bulletproof rendering of the physics and requirements for aircraft design for flying of this caliber.

In the meantime, Judge needs to round up his posse and send them back to South America. Their gibberish only clouds the perfection of my words.

[madmax]

FYI deathmatch viewers, voting begins at 8pm PST. Kris, please stop hitting the lame post button

[KrisW]

We should begin this section of the debate by outlining the fundamental requirements of the aircraft involved.

The term "Lighter is better" is the current cliched response from many people, and utterly FALSE. . especially when flying IMAC or aerobatics. At the same time having the aircraft light in the proper places is an advantage.

Current aerobatic plane designs, both wood and composite, are more than strong enough for the rigors of competition flying and hundreds, if not thousands, of flights. Where the differences in materials involved is most obvious, however, is in how the airframe reacts to it's environment, and how well it protects both itself and the components mounted to it from damage over a long period of time. As has already been discussed previously, there is no marked advantage to either airframe design for how the plane flies. Aerodynamics is Aerodynamics. For the exact same shape, both planes will have the same characteristics, be they wood or composite. But, over the long haul, there MIGHT be some degradation, of either style of construction, depending on the quality of the build in the first place. Composites can have weak spots, wood can be improperly assembled. Either is possible, but a rarity. Even the "servos beat up by composite planes" statement can be focused onto a wooden plane, but it's less applicable because the wooden airframes tend to absorb shocks and vibratiosn better than the Composite airframes. Just watch a plane idle . .the composite will tend to rattle more. And that is what is being done to your radio gear and other electronics with every pulse fromthe engine. If nothing else, the compoiste plane owner should take greater care to isolate his components from this problem.

We'll start with the currently accepted wooden airframe designs, basically a wooden framed fuselage with foam laminated decking, foam cored tail and wings, wth plastic canopy and glass cowl. These designs are actually over engineered (as evidenced in the current lightweight 260 thread), and much of the unnecessary mass can be easily removed. . if desired. My own experience with coring of foam parts, replacement of wood with some CF in the proper places, and using lightening holes in wooden plates, shows that an easy 2-4 lbs of unnecessary structure can be removed with some judicious work by the builder. But, is removing that weight actually necessary, or desireable?

In a word, yes. Take your basic 40 lbs 40% plane, and remove 2 lbs, and you gain 5% less wing loading, 5% less side loading in KE flight, and a more agile plane. The KE flight aspect is one to study, since most planes have some pitch coupling with rudder inputs, and the less rudder you need to use in KE, the less pitch coupling will result, allowing the plane to track better on certain manuvers.

BUT, there is a limit to how far a certain design can be lightened and still fly as it should, Airfoils designed for a certain wing loading and speed do not work as well if 30% (for arguments sake) of the weight is removed. Your once smooth flying plane now becomes a kite or sail, and it is difficult to throw it around and get it to react properly. Even in calm conditions it becomes apparent that the super lighweight plane, though more agile, does not seem to track as smoothly as it's heavier twin.

So, there IS a limit to how light you can make an aerobatic model, using the current design, before it's performance begins to suffer. So, why lighten the plane? Again, it depends on WHERE you lighten the plane.

Enter "Polar Moment of Inertia" where weight at the ends or tips of the plane is a very BAD thing, due to the momentum that is built up anytime the plane rolls, pitches or yaws. But, you have a certain length of fuselage that must balance on the wings CG. This is where the curent crop of super light tail surfaces and stabilizers comes in handy, as well as weight removal from the tail of the plane by going to super high output servos and pull-pull for rudder. The point here is to reduce the tail weight as much as possible, and at the same time either use lighter components (spinner, prop, engine or exhaust) or move them as far back as possible (battery shift), to try to centralize the CM (center of mass) as close to the wings CG as possible. The same is true for the wings, with coring, moving the servos toward the root, using lighter extensions and mounts/horns/linkages, and very thin woods near the tip of the wing all can contribute to wings that are still strong, but have their Polar Inertia reduced through selectively removing weight from the outer 50% of the panels. Take two wigns that weigh the same, but one that is 25% heavier at the tip, and the lighter tipped wing will accelerate into the roll quicker, as well as coming to a stop. Both wings will wobble and be affected by air currents approximately the same, but the wing with lighter tips will reduce this problem and damp out of oscillations quicker.

So. .what does this all have to do with WOOD planes? its' simple. With a wooden plane the builder can massage and change the weight distribution and CM of the fuselage and wing to take advantage of the improved flying characteristics of reduced Polar Inertia. This will make the plane crisper, better handling, less stressed due to a more centrally located CM, and more consistent in how the plane entres and exits manuvers, especially high-energy manuvers like snaps. It will fly smoother, damp out of oscillations faster, and require less control throw and mixing.

THAT is the BASIC statement for WOOD planes. They can be massaged and modified and redone .. over and over again, till they are dialed in and perfected.


Now. . Composite Aircraft .. . hmm. . you open the box, you bolt your stuff into the plane, you set CG and lateral balance, you go fly.

You are STUCK with what they gave you!!!!! Be it good, bad, indifferent, too much resin, too little resin, heavy at the ends, grossly oversized parts. You have no recourse but to fly it exactly as THEY built it. And if they goofed and rolled on an extra coat or two of resin, and added 4 lbs to your plane, now you are at 42 lbs instead of the 38 you thought you were going to get. Been there . ., done that, one too many times.

Now, you plunk down your dollars, and you gets your toy, and you go fly. you want a cookie cutter composite, or you want a hand crafted and optimized aerobatic machine? Either one will fly. . Either one can win. . . all the silly arguments about degradation of parts is just that .. silly. The wooden plane, in the hands of a skilled craftsman, can be built better, lighter, quicker, and more optimized than the composite. So, you have to ask yourself. . . . what do you want to fly? And who do you want to get your next plane from?

After that it's easy.

(YES. . that was Succinct. . I could have gone on for HOURS)

I'm sure Judge will find SOME way to refute this.

[cbk07]

	Quote: Originally Posted by KrisW
	I think I'll take a break while the MODERATOR decides whether he wants me to debate Judge, or all of Judges Lackeys. Since nothing substantive has been posted by Judge today, since he obviously can't think of anything germaine having to do with the subject matter, I'll just wait for him to come back to the realm of the debate. This is a mano e judgeo contest. I'm not here to debate with 2nd stringers.

Looks like Kris is going for the rope-a-dope teqnique. Sitting off in the corner taking punches from Judge just hoping he gets tired out before 8

[Judge]

	Quote: Originally Posted by KrisW
	I think I'll take a break while the MODERATOR decides whether he wants me to debate Judge, or all of Judges Lackeys.

Lackeys, I always wanted some lackeys!! Cool. One of you fetch me a wine spritzer, and make it QUICK!!

	Quote:
	Since nothing substantive has been posted by Judge today, since he obviously can't think of anything germaine having to do with the subject matter, I'll just wait for him to come back to the realm of the debate.

Surely you jest. I have made several germane posts. All of my germane posts have something to do with the subject matter, almost by definition. As for Germaine, isn't that the part of Maine settled by the Huns????

	Quote:
	This is a mano e judgeo contest.

I'm the Judgeo, I guess that makes you the "Hand", right??

So I suspect that you will now slink off to the chat rooms where you can make derogatory remarks behind my back since it appears that you prefer not to deal with me in this venue. Manly, very manly.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by cbk07
	Looks like Kris is going for the rope-a-dope teqnique. Sitting off in the corner taking punches from Judge just hoping he gets tired out before 8

Please note: I have not played my "BME115 with Balanced propeller" trump card .. I'm just waiting for the right moment to bring the lightweight hammer smashing down on Judge. . . .just waiting. . . . .