ButcherFest II: The Butcher Strikes Back!

[McFueler]

	Quote: Originally Posted by wmat7039
	The real BIG difference is that we do not sit in the plane as the full scale do. The pilots in full scale have their gauges on the wing-tips to let them know that they are vertical/45 degrees etc. It would be very difficult for them to fly a wind corrected sequence sitting in the aircraft. Conversely, we are standing on the ground & can see the vertical line. For those of you who do not know our history, when I joined IMAC 16 years ago & flew in Basic/Sportsman we actually did NOT fly wind correction. Because of that, when a contest was held in high wind conditions, pilots still had to hold a vertical line, ending up in the next county with the wind blowing them there. However, during the growing period of IMAC the rules were changed to make wind correction effective. Maybe some history classes are in order? Wayne

I understand why we do that and I'm always ready to learn something so teach me some more !

[tl3]

Ok, I've been resisting jumping in on this, but since I've now been asked about privately here goes. First, to set the record straight a little, there were no houses overflown at the contest, especially on the south line (canted line). The complaint came from someone on the other side of the river who simply wasn't accustomed to seeing planes where they were (not excusing anything, just the fact). Second, Jerry's is indeed shut down with respect to anymore giant scale / gas activity. Fortunately, he is still able to fly his own glow & electric stuff with out a problem. Third, elimnating rollers (in my opinion) is a bit rash. If there are contests where overfly is restricted, it is a simple matter to remove them from the flights. No additional or alternative sequence is needed, the pilots just don't fly the roller. For the sake of the scoring program, every pilot gets a 10, or 5, or whatever is decided upon for the roller. Where the roller is not a 360, the pilot is permitted a positioning manuerver to continue the sequence. Fourth, rolling loops are not (as Mark mentioned) legal manuevers, and as such are not in the Aresti catalogue; they have no k value. The fact that pattern does something, or full scale doesn't, does not intrinsically mean that we should adopt that behavior. Full scale does not wind correct because the pilot does not have a ground based perspective, we do. Personally, I do not favor adding rolling loops. IMAC has moved further from its roots over the last several years and I favor sticking with the Aresti catalogue as our manuever base. That's not to say that there are not sound issues that need to be dealt with, and a big part of that solution is to have pilots act a bit more responsibly with respect to there equipment and how they use it. Things have improved over the last couple of years, but there is still a long way to go. Personally I applaud initiatives such as the Triple Tree rule that requires cans and 3 blades to fly in that contest. I would encourage more cds to take this action. I also wouldn't object to cds getting back to enforcing the sound limits. Yes, it's one more administrative task to be handled, and yes, it's not a pure represetation of in flight sound, but it does keep the issue of noise in the forefront, and that's the only way progress will continue to be made.
t

[tl3]

Mark, the Unknown flights were not the issue that casued the problem.
t

[McFueler]

	Quote: Originally Posted by tl3
	Ok, I've been resisting jumping in on this, but since I've now been asked about privately here goes. First, to set the record straight a little, there were no houses overflown at the contest, especially on the south line (canted line). The complaint came from someone on the other side of the river who simply wasn't accustomed to seeing planes where they were (not excusing anything, just the fact). Second, Jerry's is indeed shut down with respect to anymore giant scale / gas activity. Fortunately, he is still able to fly his own glow & electric stuff with out a problem. Third, elimnating rollers (in my opinion) is a bit rash. If there are contests where overfly is restricted, it is a simple matter to remove them from the flights. No additional or alternative sequence is needed, the pilots just don't fly the roller. For the sake of the scoring program, every pilot gets a 10, or 5, or whatever is decided upon for the roller. Where the roller is not a 360, the pilot is permitted a positioning manuerver to continue the sequence. Fourth, rolling loops are not (as Mark mentioned) legal manuevers, and as such are not in the Aresti catalogue; they have no k value. The fact that pattern does something, or full scale doesn't, does not intrinsically mean that we should adopt that behavior. Full scale does not wind correct because the pilot does have a ground based perspective, we do. Personally, I do not favor adding rolling loops. IMAC has moved further from its roots over the last several years and I favor sticking with the Aresti catalogue as our manuever base. That's not to say that there are not sound issues that need to be dealt with, and a big part of that solution is to have pilots act a bit more responsibly with respect to there equipment and how they use it. Things have improved over the last couple of years, but there is still a long way to go. Personally I applaud initiatives such as the Triple Tree rule that requires cans and 3 blades to fly in that contest. I would encourage more cds to take this action. I also wouldn't object to cds getting back to enforcing the sound limits. Yes, it's one more administrative task to be handled, and yes, it's not a pure represetation of in flight sound, but it does keep the issue of noise in the forefront, and that's the only way progress will continue to be made. t

I like your ideal's , what do we need to do to get this problem brought up to the BOD ?

[McFueler]

	Quote: Originally Posted by tl3
	Mark, the Unknown flights were not the issue that casued the problem. t

Well that makes me feel a little better , but the IMAC contest is still the reason Jerry can not fly big scale planes at his field anymore so we still need to see what IMAC can do to help keep clubs from loosing flying fields !

[tl3]

	Quote:
	like your ideal's , what do we need to do to get this problem brought up to the BOD ?

I believe we have standards in place. We, as pilots, just need to encourage cds to enforce the standards and support the their decision to do so. If we don't, we (IMAC) as a group will ultimately suffer the consequences of having decisions made for us by those who don't neccessarily share our same intersts.
t

[JimC-MD]

Could someone look at a map and tell us what the distance was to the line that was monitored for "pullup"? I still go back to my impression that wild power to weight and the better scores from flying HUGE, SLOW figures has contributed to the footprint of flying these big planes.

That being said, my distance question brings this next one. How much air space does a full scale aerobat use to fly a loop? Are we flying these figures to scale or are we over scale? I have always felt that fullscale was more exciting to watch and the pace felt quicker. Perhaps if we tighten it up to scale size and pace, it would increase the difficulty, tighten the footprint and make it more appealing to spectating. Just my perception. I have asked this before but never seem to get solid information. Perhaps Mr Chapman or somone else could give us some insight. How big is a loop? Total altitude delta in a hammer etc. Watching him at the Nall, it did not appear that he was using twice or more of the airspace that some of the scale planes did.

Maybe if the ACS score became 30% of the flight and the noise score was 20%? The pilot that flies tighter, quicker and quieter may beat out the straight header, super smooth, huge figure pilot. That would change the flying styles pretty quickly, right?

Not looking to get flamed here. Just asking questions. I hate to see fields lost.

[prizzy]

Jim, those are good points. As of now, the pilots that fly big and fast, still do, because they can and still win. Raising the K's on sound and ACS would do something. At Farm, I got 4 zeros in one round for sound, and still won the round. I don't think that should be.
Ty, I admire your purist attitude, and it's commendable. A good post for your one post a month. If it's simply enough, like at Ocala, to simply not fly the rollers, that is a great compromise.

[prizzy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by wmat7039
	Maybe some history classes are in order? Wayne

Wayne, you should organize a history seminar. Kent Porter can bring the Guinea's.

[MattyMatt]

I'm going back into the shop and keep building... It won't be possible for me to fly too far for another 4-6 months anyway (box, verical loop, eliminate, whatever)....


There is one easy way to keep from flying too far away... make the planes smaller. I don't like that idea though.

[mike chandley]

I think we fly to big also... but the judges need scribes for the small box I know I can fly even with the 50 center.

[whaturi]

Mike, it looked like your box was actually smaller with the 50% than the 40%.