Pattern planes for 07?

[Animal Jesky]

Ryan,

I don't think that the Astral XX plus is being produced by anyone yet. The way to tell would be the landing gear. If you looked at Sean's at the nats it is very wide at the fuse. This one looks to be narrow like the bolly gear.

Andrew

[mwick]

Andrew:

Oxai is now including (selling) the wide gear with their planes. The Beryll we took delivery on right after the Nats has the wide gear and if you look at the build thread on RCU for the Zeque it also has the wide gear. There are some very competent pilots out there that believe the wider gear is aiding in rudder control.

Brett's Beryll came in at 4830 gr with TP 5300's and the heavier 9150 wing servos. The small tapered wing produces the fastest, prettiest snaps I've ever seen. Brett will probably have to slow down for the older judges

Mike Wickizer

[JAS]

The XX plus is only made in Japan. The fin is different as well as the gear. I think there were a couple other minor changes, but nothing major. The Zeque should have the wide gear, that's the way it was in France.

[BreadBowl]

To my understanding, the XX Plus has a smaller wing area, as well as a different canopy location.

[Troy Newman]

I Spoke to the Oxai folks and the Oxai Astral XX is almost identical to the model flown by Sean at the NATS. The XX Plus is built only for Naruke from Nishioka and starts at about $5000-5500 US before it leaves Japan.

The Differences between the XXc (XX custom or Oxai Version) and the XX Plus Sean flew at the NATS is the angle of the Stab, canopy construction, and wing construction materials. Sean's Model was -8degs. The XXc from Oxai is -6deg. The XX Plus Sean had used a Clear canopy and the Oxai version is painted. The XX Plus has balsa rib wings and stab. The XXc Oxai version has Foam Wings sheeted with Balsa.

The Weights are different as well. Bill Cunningham's' XX Plus' weigh in at 10.5lbs (4760g). My Oxai XXc is exactly 10lbs (4536g) Bill's Oxai XXc is about 10lbs 2oz (4590g). The weight difference is mostly due to the Clear canopy and some other parts that are molded differently. I know the Oxai versions must meet certain weight and finish standards before they leave Oxai. The Naruke versions are only available through Naruke Hobby if you can get on the "A" list.

I have the Canard style landing gear on my XXc. These landing gear are very expensive I got them from Japan and they are about $150 each set for the struts only. This is by the time you pay the Japanese taxes and the shipping charges.

There is another Astral XX produced by Extreme composite and sold by BVM here in the USA. After some investigation it has the different fin, stab, and wing from the other two versions of the XX. This model is an all molded painted in the mold model like the Comp Arf stuff.

The Oxai and Naruke Hobby versions (XX plus and XXc) are both wood models with some Carbon molded parts graphed onto them. The Extreme Comp version is all molded like the Comp Arf's.

After talking with the Japanese and the Oxai folks basically the XX airframe had a some evolution happen in the last few years.

Xtreme Composite XX (Aurea in Japan) $2500 Good
Oxai XXc $3400 Better
Naruke Hobby XX Plus $5000 Best

This allows folks of different skill levels and budgets to get a good model that has the basics of the Astral XX, in addition adds some marketing for the guy that can't afford the World Champion level model. The XXc and XXplus are modified to perform the snaps and rolling loops and circles of the F patterns better. From my experience with these models there is a definite quality difference as well between the 3 models.

On to the Landing gear. The Canard style gear that was on Sean's model at the NATS seems to be the standard on the XX plus versions but I plugged them into my XXc model and mounted them up just like original equipment. The idea behind these gear is they are little Canards up front.

I personally like the look of the canard style gear. With these gear on my XXc the model flying wise is only different from the XX Plus Sean flew at the NATS in that it has a -6deg tail and not -8degs like Sean's Plus.

Of Note Naruke's new models the Adventure Bipe produced by Oxai, and the two new monoplanes from Naruke Hobby direct have a less (not as wide) canard style gear compared to the XX Plus gear from earlier in 2006. And the Aries (-7deg stab) and the Altair (0deg tail) so do these subtle things matter?

I know my Electric Pinnacle (custom Mod to -5deg stab) was better at the rolling loops and circles than the regular Pinnacle's with a 0 deg tail.

Since the Naruke Hobby planes are built one at a time and not under a factory production spec, my guess is they were all modified over time to incorporate new little ideas and test things. When a change that was major was put in place then a new name XXc or plus was added and OXAI got it and went into production. I know the first XXc test models were suppose to have a -5deg tail, and I think it had the same wing wing from the regular Astral X on it. It is my understanding this is the wing that is on the Xtreme Composite version from BVM Props.


Having not flown the Xtreme composite version and talking with the guy that has both the XXc and the XX plus they fly the same when the canard gear are used on the Oxai version.

just wanted to clear up some of the facts. I get asked all the time and the models are compared. There are differences between the 3 versions even though they all say Astral XX on the side.

[Boulder]

Thanks for clearing that up Troy, it still looks like I'll be flying Archie Stafford's previously owned Mantis this year, with my El Nino, formally owned by Mark Atwood, as a backup.

See everyone at the Nats!!!

Pretty sure I'll be flying Intermediate, got talked out of moving up.

[Troy Newman]

Hey man its good you have a couple good models to fly. We all get caught up in the latest cool model when in reality its all about the flying. These new models are really designed for the FAI stuff and sometimes the pilots with less experience think the new Astral XX is going to make them fly better. Reality is thats not the case usually.

As for moving up. Its not a race, and listen to the folks you have around you. It really sucks to get into a class that you are not prepared for just because did your time in the lower class. Doing the time is one part, but learning the skills is the big thing. My opinion is precision flying regardless of what it is, scale, IMAC, F3A all tune the skills in several areas. You learn to do new things like snaps or spins, a slow roll or two rolls reversed. In the same learning curve you learn how to setup the model. This includes everything from basic trim stuff to complex changes to incidence or cg to get the model to perform a certain way under a give condition or in a specific maneuver. Then one of the skills that seems to be fading fast is the building of the model.

I know for a fact my models I build today are better tools during the competition than the models I build 5 years ago and better than the ones I built 10 years ago. All of these things go together to make your flying better. Understanding how things work, and what causes things to happen come with experience and we always find something new to challenge us.

That is what I love about pattern models. The technology is at the peak of modeling and yet my model is only the tool that I use to chase those 10's. As with anything out there Some models are better than others.

I know Mark's El Nino and Arch's Mantis are good models and are capable of performing well. You just need to fly and pay attention to the details of the model. The more critical you are of the models performance the more you will work to make the model better. Trim work is really a never ending process. As the wise man says its not the destination its the journey. A little corny but in pattern I started flying it in 1987 to become a better pilot. I wanted to fly a P-38 and not dump it. Well War birds still inspire me. My grandfather and I built that P-38 and its still around.


Troy

[aglenn]

	Quote: Originally Posted by ryansmith
	marlo, is the Astral XXc the Oxai version of the Naruke XX Plus, or something totally different altogether? AC, will you be flying in Masters again, or are you moving up? Brett- lucky b*stard. You too AC. Take care guys.

Im not sure what im gonna do yet.

[Boulder]

Hey Troy,

I couldn't agree more. The reason I started flying Pattern is the same as you, I wanted to become a better pilot. I only started flying Pattern 3 years ago, with the first 2 years in Sportsman and last year in Intermediate. My original inclination to move up started by winning my district in Intermediate, and I thought if I practiced real hard, I might be ready by next season. So I really haven't done my time in Intermediate, and with the new sequence this year, I'm pretty sure that's where I'll stay, at least until after the Nats.
I've got one guy that I'll be attending contests with this year who I'm sure will be very competative, I'll be chasing him. Good, clean competition will be some serious fun this year, I can't wait!!!

[Divesplat]

I'll have the Prestige again for 2007 and a Symphony for a back up. Just couldn't find the $$ or need to build a new one this winter. Maybe next year.

Ed

[Temptation]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Boulder
	Hey Troy, I couldn't agree more. The reason I started flying Pattern is the same as you, I wanted to become a better pilot. I only started flying Pattern 3 years ago, with the first 2 years in Sportsman and last year in Intermediate. My original inclination to move up started by winning my district in Intermediate, and I thought if I practiced real hard, I might be ready by next season. So I really haven't done my time in Intermediate, and with the new sequence this year, I'm pretty sure that's where I'll stay, at least until after the Nats. I've got one guy that I'll be attending contests with this year who I'm sure will be very competative, I'll be chasing him. Good, clean competition will be some serious fun this year, I can't wait!!!

Ken, I am glad to here that you decided to stay in Intermediate. It will be well worth it in the long run. You have two great planes to fly. Now you need to take the time to dial them in to you flying style and burn lots of fuel. I really like what Troy said. It's not the destination, but the journey that's important. That right there hits the nail on the head. Now all you need to do is get your but back to D4 where you belong. It's just not going to be the same without you here anymore. I'm still mad at you for leaving . Anyway, good luck in D6. Now, just remember, slow down and don't let the plane get ahead of you.

Mike Darr

[Boulder]

Yeah Mike,

It's probably one of the smarter decisions I've made, staying in Intermediate.

I'm sure going to miss you guys up there, but, hopefully I'll see a bunch of you at the Nats and I'm also going to try and make the D4 finals contest.