ETOC Sequence Aresti Drawing - Page 3

Bert vander Vecht · 03-06-2007, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Bert vander Vecht

I am afraid the Aresti drawing raises some more questions.

1) The way the starting sequence is connected to the first manouvre means that you get a double displacement in depth shift towards the pilot. Shouldn't this be the other way round?
A:
The way it is drawn is correct.
Q: The optional left and right turns from the written sequence program will still allow the pilot to start manouver 2 at the far side?

2) In manouvre 2 the goldfish part is shown as inverted flight (Dashed line). How do you go from level flight to inverted flight with a 1/4 roll? Same question for the exit, how do you go from inverted flight to inverted flight with a 1/4 roll?,

A: Yes it shown as inverted only because the loop portion of the goldfish is down elevator or a sort of negative G. The model is on Knife Edge using elevator to go through the "Dead" fish. So how do you go from inverted to inverted with a 1/4 roll. You don't the model is coming from Knife edge to inverted. to end the figure in #2 This can't be drawn with Aresti so I did what I could to illustrate it. The written description, of the figure needs to used for you to understand it. Basically the model rolls 1/4 roll to knife edge flight and then pitches negative G to a 45deg crossbox line, performs 2.5 rolls to the opposite knife edge flight, then pushes 5/8 of a horizontal circle and the model is using down elevator.
Aaarrggghh, the return of the infamous 5/8 knifedge turn that leaves the rest of the program at an awkward 45 degr. angle to the centerline. Note to myself: Ask the next person 3/4 of a pie and return only 5/8 of a pie and see if that person notices the difference.
To avoid further confusion it may be best to use the correct Aresti symbol for knife edge flight. (Dot, dash. dot, dash, etc.)

3) Manouvre 4. the entry into the torque roll. A quarter knife edge loop or a knife edge harrier where the altitude of the C of G of the aircraft must not change. (Like the FAI torque roll entry from level flight in the F3p program.)
A:
This is a judging question you should direct to the chief judge. My opinion and is only my opinion, is that it should be judged the same as the Torque roll in the F3P sequence the kfife edge harrier rotates into a torque roll with minimal to zero vertical altitude change. But this decision will not be made by me. So check with the event director and chief judge.
As this is of equal importance to all competitors may I suggest the event director calls the chief judge and makes his answer known here?

4) Manouvre 6. The way the Aresti is drawn you are required to keep changing heading during the snap rolls. This implies an unstalled condition of the airplane and thus a zero for the snap?
A:
The snaps must be stalled this is not an F3A model, and the speed on an indoor model is much slower. For the circle to be round you are absolutely correct, so you must do the best you can and the pilot performing it the best will recieve the best score. All pilots must live with this problem and overcome it. Snap roll criteria will not be sacrificed in order to maintain the circle. The pilot must adapt, and overcome. Interesting, you are asking the pilots to cheat and the best cheater wins?

Manouvre 7. It is drawn as a horizontal level 3/4 eight. Is it a banked manouvre or a side slipped manouvre? The 1/4 and 3/4 rolls on entry and exit as well as the half roll in the middle do not seem to fit in with the Aresti drawing?
A:
Again the model is on knife edge. and the loop portions are using elevator. Look at the notes saying the figure is veiwed from above. See comment above about using correct Aresti symbols to indicate knife edge flight.

6) Manouvre 10. It is drawn as a manouvre with a level, upright, entry and exit. how does it fit between the previous and following manouvres that end and start with inverted flight?

A: Yes it is drawn with a level upright entry and exit and should be inverted. This will be corrected on Rev1-2. This figure is also drawn from above and is a 90deg flat turn, on the cross box element 1 roll-1 opposite roll, then another 90 deg flat turn no bank. Thanks for the explanation.

It is not my intention to offend anyone with my line of questioning. I know it is very hard to write a flight sequence in such a way that it can only be understood in one way.

You have invited a kid, Derk van der Vecht, and I am helping him to decide if this event is worth spending all his savings on to get him and his planes across the Atlantic.

The lack of a well defined known sequence and the absence of the promised personal invitation seem to indicate that this is more of a "fun" type event.
While there is nothing wrong with fun type events, Derk is more interested in serious competitions, which do not need to exclude having fun.

Yours sincerely
Bert van der Vecht.

**Wayne** · 03-06-2007, 01:44 PM

Bert,

I can assure you this is a very serious contest.
The questions everyone are having regarding the aresti are being cleared up.

Keep in mind this is a difficult sequence to write in aresti when including these types of maneuvers.

I keep looking at the aresti and it makes sense to me as written.

**Wayne** · 03-06-2007, 02:00 PM

This how I evension the sequence being flown as far as positioning.
Flying left to right.

1- Takeoff in front of the box. Left 180 degree turn. Right 180 degree turn.

2- Horizontal (Dead) fish. Starts at the back of the box and ends in the front of the box.

3- Tailslide on the left side, front of the box.

4- Torque Roll in front of the box, center. Ends going inverted, high, across the box

5- Pull to vertical at the back of the box. End coming right back at me inverted.

6- Roller will go to the right and end at the back of the box.

7- 3/4 figure 8 will start at the back of the box and end mid box depth.

8- Top Hat will start mid box and fly back to front of the box over the top.

9- Roll and snap will be in front of the box

10- Half square will start at the front of the box and end at the back of the box

11- Roller will start and end at the back of the box

12- 180 degree turn will come in towards the front of the box.

Flown this way or reversed, I see it working.
There are no weird angles that the put subsequent figures off axis.

Animal Jesky · 03-06-2007, 02:04 PM

Bert,

I can assure you that this is a very serious contest and that many people spend hundreds of hours preping for this. So far after reading the aresti it all makes sense here. If you have any questions please feel free to drop me a Private message and hopefully I can help clear anything up.

Andrew

Bert vander Vecht · 03-06-2007, 02:29 PM

I now see that the answers to my questions were from 2 different persons.
One is called Wayne and one is called Troy Newman.
They are totally contradicting each other. May I inform who is officially involved in this and who was just having a bad idea of a joke.

I am asking this in public since I have no idea how to judge from across the atlantic who is the official person and who was pulling my leg.

I bet you guys overthere can help me find out who to put on my ignore list.

Animal Jesky · 03-06-2007, 02:31 PM

Both of the people are officially involved. Troy helps write and draw the sequences, and Wayne is the contest director!!!

Andrew

**Wayne** · 03-06-2007, 02:37 PM

	Quote: Originally Posted by Bert vander Vecht
	I now see that the answers to my questions were from 2 different persons. One is called Wayne and one is called Troy Newman. They are totally contradicting each other. May I inform who is officially involved in this and who was just having a bad idea of a joke. I am asking this in public since I have no idea how to judge from across the atlantic who is the official person and who was pulling my leg. I bet you guys overthere can help me find out who to put on my ignore list.

Bert,

#1.. Please calm down.

#2.. What can I help you with?

Bob, Troy and I are all trying to get this information to you guys as fast and accurately as possible.
We do this in our spare time and unfortunately with three people, three different schedules, 3 different time alotments, there will be some mistakes.
We are doing our best with forums like this to clear up any confusion.

I think we've done that.
The sequence makes sense as far as I can see.

JAS · 03-06-2007, 02:56 PM

If anyone knows how to post a video recording from G3 (very poor job of flying, but the sequence non the less) I will record a flight through the sequence and post it. Should help clear it up.

Jason Noll · 03-06-2007, 02:59 PM

Jas,

you have to have a special program to convert the file. I had to have Jim do mine for me.

Jason

JAS · 03-06-2007, 03:01 PM

That makes it easy then, guess I break out the camera and video it and post it. I'll try and get a decent flight to post tonight.

Bert vander Vecht · 03-06-2007, 04:36 PM

	Quote: Originally Posted by Wayne
	Bert, #1.. Please calm down. #2.. What can I help you with? Bob, Troy and I are all trying to get this information to you guys as fast and accurately as possible. We do this in our spare time and unfortunately with three people, three different schedules, 3 different time alotments, there will be some mistakes. We are doing our best with forums like this to clear up any confusion. I think we've done that. The sequence makes sense as far as I can see.

#1 I have done some flying. That always calms me down.

#2 I think it is better for me to wait a few days and see how the sequence has evolved and changed to its final format before asking anymore questions about it.

Greetings,
Bert.

Donatas · 03-06-2007, 07:02 PM

I understand Bert/Derk concern about this situation, trip across Atlantic cost allot of $$$. And to make trip to contest without knowing that you fly 100% right would be to crazy. Maybe this will help:
Bob asked me to make video of this sequence, i don't have big gym and special plane to fit in, so most i could do was AFPD video:
http://www.pauzuolis-rc.com/Videos/ETOC2007_DP.wmv
Sory for slow server...

This should be good way, to find mistakes and agree for all pilots how seq should look.
So far Wayne find one mistake in #2, instead 4 of 8 roll i made 4 point roll, ( my mistake did not read description close enough)

Flight not clear and not smooth, but i guess there is no point to polish it till im not sure i fly everything like it should be.

P.S: Bert hope to see you in Mons if for some reason you/Derk will be unable to participate in ETOC.

03-06-2007, 01:24 PM	#25 (permalink)
Bert vander Vecht Flyin' Around Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Holland Posts: 7	Re: Sequence Aresti Drawing Originally Posted by Bert vander Vecht I am afraid the Aresti drawing raises some more questions. 1) The way the starting sequence is connected to the first manouvre means that you get a double displacement in depth shift towards the pilot. Shouldn't this be the other way round? A: The way it is drawn is correct. Q: The optional left and right turns from the written sequence program will still allow the pilot to start manouver 2 at the far side? 2) In manouvre 2 the goldfish part is shown as inverted flight (Dashed line). How do you go from level flight to inverted flight with a 1/4 roll? Same question for the exit, how do you go from inverted flight to inverted flight with a 1/4 roll?, A: Yes it shown as inverted only because the loop portion of the goldfish is down elevator or a sort of negative G. The model is on Knife Edge using elevator to go through the "Dead" fish. So how do you go from inverted to inverted with a 1/4 roll. You don't the model is coming from Knife edge to inverted. to end the figure in #2 This can't be drawn with Aresti so I did what I could to illustrate it. The written description, of the figure needs to used for you to understand it. Basically the model rolls 1/4 roll to knife edge flight and then pitches negative G to a 45deg crossbox line, performs 2.5 rolls to the opposite knife edge flight, then pushes 5/8 of a horizontal circle and the model is using down elevator. Aaarrggghh, the return of the infamous 5/8 knifedge turn that leaves the rest of the program at an awkward 45 degr. angle to the centerline. Note to myself: Ask the next person 3/4 of a pie and return only 5/8 of a pie and see if that person notices the difference. To avoid further confusion it may be best to use the correct Aresti symbol for knife edge flight. (Dot, dash. dot, dash, etc.) 3) Manouvre 4. the entry into the torque roll. A quarter knife edge loop or a knife edge harrier where the altitude of the C of G of the aircraft must not change. (Like the FAI torque roll entry from level flight in the F3p program.) A: This is a judging question you should direct to the chief judge. My opinion and is only my opinion, is that it should be judged the same as the Torque roll in the F3P sequence the kfife edge harrier rotates into a torque roll with minimal to zero vertical altitude change. But this decision will not be made by me. So check with the event director and chief judge. As this is of equal importance to all competitors may I suggest the event director calls the chief judge and makes his answer known here? 4) Manouvre 6. The way the Aresti is drawn you are required to keep changing heading during the snap rolls. This implies an unstalled condition of the airplane and thus a zero for the snap? A: The snaps must be stalled this is not an F3A model, and the speed on an indoor model is much slower. For the circle to be round you are absolutely correct, so you must do the best you can and the pilot performing it the best will recieve the best score. All pilots must live with this problem and overcome it. Snap roll criteria will not be sacrificed in order to maintain the circle. The pilot must adapt, and overcome. Interesting, you are asking the pilots to cheat and the best cheater wins? Manouvre 7. It is drawn as a horizontal level 3/4 eight. Is it a banked manouvre or a side slipped manouvre? The 1/4 and 3/4 rolls on entry and exit as well as the half roll in the middle do not seem to fit in with the Aresti drawing? A: Again the model is on knife edge. and the loop portions are using elevator. Look at the notes saying the figure is veiwed from above. See comment above about using correct Aresti symbols to indicate knife edge flight. 6) Manouvre 10. It is drawn as a manouvre with a level, upright, entry and exit. how does it fit between the previous and following manouvres that end and start with inverted flight? A: Yes it is drawn with a level upright entry and exit and should be inverted. This will be corrected on Rev1-2. This figure is also drawn from above and is a 90deg flat turn, on the cross box element 1 roll-1 opposite roll, then another 90 deg flat turn no bank. Thanks for the explanation. It is not my intention to offend anyone with my line of questioning. I know it is very hard to write a flight sequence in such a way that it can only be understood in one way. You have invited a kid, Derk van der Vecht, and I am helping him to decide if this event is worth spending all his savings on to get him and his planes across the Atlantic. The lack of a well defined known sequence and the absence of the promised personal invitation seem to indicate that this is more of a "fun" type event. While there is nothing wrong with fun type events, Derk is more interested in serious competitions, which do not need to exclude having fun. Yours sincerely Bert van der Vecht.

03-06-2007, 01:44 PM	#26 (permalink)
Wayne Learn how to work Kid. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bloomington, Il Age: 40 Posts: 5,009 Awards Showcase Total Awards: 2	Re: Sequence Aresti Drawing Bert, I can assure you this is a very serious contest. The questions everyone are having regarding the aresti are being cleared up. Keep in mind this is a difficult sequence to write in aresti when including these types of maneuvers. I keep looking at the aresti and it makes sense to me as written. __________________ Team JR Desert Aircraft Fromeco Extreme Flight RC Aerographix SWB Built by Walt wgeffon@comcast.net

03-06-2007, 02:00 PM	#27 (permalink)
Wayne Learn how to work Kid. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bloomington, Il Age: 40 Posts: 5,009 Awards Showcase Total Awards: 2	Re: Sequence Aresti Drawing This how I evension the sequence being flown as far as positioning. Flying left to right. 1- Takeoff in front of the box. Left 180 degree turn. Right 180 degree turn. 2- Horizontal (Dead) fish. Starts at the back of the box and ends in the front of the box. 3- Tailslide on the left side, front of the box. 4- Torque Roll in front of the box, center. Ends going inverted, high, across the box 5- Pull to vertical at the back of the box. End coming right back at me inverted. 6- Roller will go to the right and end at the back of the box. 7- 3/4 figure 8 will start at the back of the box and end mid box depth. 8- Top Hat will start mid box and fly back to front of the box over the top. 9- Roll and snap will be in front of the box 10- Half square will start at the front of the box and end at the back of the box 11- Roller will start and end at the back of the box 12- 180 degree turn will come in towards the front of the box. Flown this way or reversed, I see it working. There are no weird angles that the put subsequent figures off axis. __________________ Team JR Desert Aircraft Fromeco Extreme Flight RC Aerographix SWB Built by Walt wgeffon@comcast.net

03-06-2007, 02:04 PM	#28 (permalink)
Animal Jesky Squirrel please... Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Monroe, Michigan Age: 21 Posts: 493	Re: Sequence Aresti Drawing Bert, I can assure you that this is a very serious contest and that many people spend hundreds of hours preping for this. So far after reading the aresti it all makes sense here. If you have any questions please feel free to drop me a Private message and hopefully I can help clear anything up. Andrew __________________ Thanks Dad, Mom, Joe, and Heather for all your support in everything I do. Bryson Fernandez- Keep a spot up there for me when we meet again, until that day keep flying high in the sky!!! Last edited by Animal Jesky; 03-06-2007 at 02:12 PM.

03-06-2007, 02:29 PM	#29 (permalink)
Bert vander Vecht Flyin' Around Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Holland Posts: 7	Re: Sequence Aresti Drawing I now see that the answers to my questions were from 2 different persons. One is called Wayne and one is called Troy Newman. They are totally contradicting each other. May I inform who is officially involved in this and who was just having a bad idea of a joke. I am asking this in public since I have no idea how to judge from across the atlantic who is the official person and who was pulling my leg. I bet you guys overthere can help me find out who to put on my ignore list.


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03-06-2007, 02:31 PM	#30 (permalink)
Animal Jesky Squirrel please... Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Monroe, Michigan Age: 21 Posts: 493	Re: Sequence Aresti Drawing Both of the people are officially involved. Troy helps write and draw the sequences, and Wayne is the contest director!!! Andrew __________________ Thanks Dad, Mom, Joe, and Heather for all your support in everything I do. Bryson Fernandez- Keep a spot up there for me when we meet again, until that day keep flying high in the sky!!!

03-06-2007, 02:56 PM	#32 (permalink)
JAS It's all about MGS Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Around the USA Posts: 484	Re: Sequence Aresti Drawing If anyone knows how to post a video recording from G3 (very poor job of flying, but the sequence non the less) I will record a flight through the sequence and post it. Should help clear it up.

03-06-2007, 02:59 PM	#33 (permalink)
Jason Noll Burnin' gas! Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Champaign, IL Age: 27 Posts: 72	Re: Sequence Aresti Drawing Jas, you have to have a special program to convert the file. I had to have Jim do mine for me. Jason

03-06-2007, 03:01 PM	#34 (permalink)
JAS It's all about MGS Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Around the USA Posts: 484	Re: Sequence Aresti Drawing That makes it easy then, guess I break out the camera and video it and post it. I'll try and get a decent flight to post tonight.

03-06-2007, 07:02 PM	#36 (permalink)
Donatas Bad-ass Super Contributer! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Lithuania Age: 24 Posts: 318	Re: Sequence Aresti Drawing I understand Bert/Derk concern about this situation, trip across Atlantic cost allot of $$$. And to make trip to contest without knowing that you fly 100% right would be to crazy. Maybe this will help: Bob asked me to make video of this sequence, i don't have big gym and special plane to fit in, so most i could do was AFPD video: http://www.pauzuolis-rc.com/Videos/ETOC2007_DP.wmv Sory for slow server... This should be good way, to find mistakes and agree for all pilots how seq should look. So far Wayne find one mistake in #2, instead 4 of 8 roll i made 4 point roll, ( my mistake did not read description close enough) Flight not clear and not smooth, but i guess there is no point to polish it till im not sure i fly everything like it should be. P.S: Bert hope to see you in Mons if for some reason you/Derk will be unable to participate in ETOC. __________________ Team Jersey Modeler Team Castle Creations Team Flight Power Team Freestyle-RC/Extreme Flight Team Slowflyworld www.pauzuolis-rc.com

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