Independent tests prove lack of frequency hopping with XPS

[wrightme]

	Quote: Originally Posted by JEFFRO503
	I couldn't possibly do this.....why? Because all the guys over at RCG that "had problems".....got their threads deleted!!!

Yep. And I am glad they did get deleted. They could have stayed, along with the information in those threads. The folks with issues could NOT stay civil, and would repeat the same heartburn over and over and over. Someone looking for actual information would see their question, and possible answers get turned in to a bickering contest. Folks who like the product were at fault in this exchange also.

	Quote: Originally Posted by JEFFRO503
	I have seriously spent a lot of time over at RCG , and was reading through a brand new thread......only to see it was deleted by the moderator <<<< JIM , which is totally unfair!! I have seen SO MANY threads get deleted right after they had been posted , it was crazy!

Yes, crazy. Once a person complained about losing a model, they would NOT stop. The threads deserved to be deleted.

	Quote: Originally Posted by JEFFRO503
	This is what gets me all fired up inside. Is the fact that the guys who praise it are allowed to stay , and the guys who have condemed it , or better yet , just want clarification on things........get their posts deleted!!

See above. Posts and threads that stayed civil usually stay. And frankly, it IS his forum to do with as he sees fit. Those who wished to discuss over and over and over again about their problems were free to clutter the General Radio forum.

	Quote: Originally Posted by JEFFRO503
	Here on FG , if there is a problem with a system , motor , aircraft , or anything , Max and the other Mods usually let it slide until the company can come in and explain things. Unlike RCG , they give the creator of the product , FULL disclosure of HIS THREAD , which is unfair! It's unfair for everyone , not just the guys who had problems with the system , but new potential buyers.....whom are being mislead!!

It is only unfair if RCG also deleted negative posts in all the forums, which they do not. Go over there and see how easy it is to complain about a Hitec product in that Vendor forum........

	Quote: Originally Posted by JEFFRO503
	do you understand what i'm saying? I have read through a bunch of posts in this thread alone , along with many other posts , of people losing their very high dollar aircraft to this system. That is really sad.

Yes, it is sad. People who cannot afford to lose a high dollar aircraft should take up knitting. It is a remote control vehicle, and it isn't perfect, no matter which control system you purchase. Sometime, someday, each hobbyist in this hobby WILL crash. Sometimes due to equipment failure, poor equipment design, poor installation, battery failure, structural fatigue or failure, the list goes on. Crashes due to R/C link loss are nothing new.

	Quote: Originally Posted by JEFFRO503
	The saddest thing about this entire argument ( and yes it's an argument ) , is that some of these poor folks , poored everything they have into some of these aircraft , only to be shot down by some inferior system.

The real truth is that you do not KNOW that.

	Quote: Originally Posted by JEFFRO503
	I think it kind of hits a little harder over here though , because some guys put more than what they can actually afford into some of these airplanes. I know i do. It can really hit the wallet hard , but to see into go into the ground by something that wasn't your fault , can be a really bad thing.

So then blame the radio.......

You may wish to re-read my post, and take it into context. It was in response to the post count in this thread, on Flying Giants, and was NOT about the post count on RCG in any way.

I am not knocking FG, or you. But seriously, you are taking my comments out of context, and the real reality of this is that what you see here is a small number of people with crashes, many of them unexplained. You cannot count those people, and expect to get a meaningful datum out of it. Each time a person puts a plane in the air with a remote control system, there is a chance it will crash. It happens. Each person who does this hobby should understand that it can, and most likely will happen to them at some point.

[wrightme]

	Quote: Originally Posted by xed
	It has been proven and documented by multiple testers (i.e. more than ONE) where the noise floor was increased gradually to the point where XPS simply went into lockout rather than hopping to a different channel as advertised. If it will only hop when there is a total eclipse of the moon and the remaining 99% of the time your model eats dirt, then you have been misled into believing that the "hopping" feature with "Patents Pending" was the be-all-end-all-of-extreme-radio-link-technology. In the end, if it does not hop when it is pertentent to, it just becomes false advertising/misleading the customer/marketing.

You know, that "eclipse of the moon..." statement just makes no sense at all.......
It is also a decent example of the posts that would get threads deleted in the XPS Vendor forum on RCG.

[Chris F]

What a pity this thread has been hijacked by the XPS FB club. I hope it stops because this is the only place I can find that has an unbiased view of the XPS product. I have found FG a fantastic resource which has helped me decide which 2.4 system to try and I thank everyone who has helped by posting factual and non-emotive information, I have learned a lot!

[JEFFRO503]

Wrightme.....It was never anything peronally against you. So i hope you didn't take it that way , and if you did i am sorry , i did not mean it to come out that way.

with that being said.......from all the reading i have done here on FG , RCU , RCG , Flying ****** , DOD , and maybe a few other. When there always seemed to be an "unexplained crash" , it seemd like in a lot of those wrecks , they we're using an XPS system. Not ALL of them , i totally understand that. It just seems like that a lot of people we're having problems with this system. I think this is why XJET and KIWI decided to do these tests.

so far , the only system to get tested by them was the XPS system. They found that no matter what they did , they could not get it to hop. I think they we're planning on testing the Fasst system and the JR/spektrum system as well. ( in fact i think somebody already did....can't remember) But i'm interested in what they find with those systems.

I haven't heard of one loss of an aircraft from anyone with a Fasst system. There could be , but i just haven't seen the thread. And i know that Spektrum did lose a few aircraft , but they had found out later about it going into a "brownout" below a certain voltage.


all i'm saying is , that there are a lot of people who have been happy with XPS , because they have never had a problem. But there are quite a few guys who "did" have problems.


There is one thread i remember really well. Some guy in here had like 100+ flights on his 40% aircraft. He hooked up the XPS , did a ground check and everything checked out great. he mentioned that he'd been flying 72mhz for years , and never had a problem , but wanted to jump on the 2.4 train.


First flight report was he was getting hit after just a few minutes of flying , and tried to bring her in. On approach , he was cruising in about 15' off the deck , and it went into total lockout , nose dived and had to pick up the pieces in a garbage bag.


JD mentioned he thought the guy had placed the receiver in the wrong spot. But the guy set it up exactly like he was told to do from JD and the XPS guide.

I saw a post from JD saying that he had thought that the receiver got locked out , because it was behind the motor. "behind the motor"?? isn't that where every receiver is located? It really should matter to much where you have the receiver as long as you have it far enough away from the exhaust , batteries , and any servo's which might cause a problem.


anyways......I'm going off on all this from everything i have read on all the forums , from numerous amounts of people. I never bought an XPS system , because within the first month or so , i started reading reports of downed aircraft , or aircraft that we're barley saved , but we're being locked out. So i decided to wait for the Fasst system.

And again man.....this was never anything personal against you. It was a way for me to vent a little bit of my anger for the guys who used XPS and lost there airplane. Jesus , i feel sorry for some of those guys.

[DesertHucker]

	Quote: Originally Posted by buttface
	We all need to file a class action suit against JD (XPS) and all of his false claims.I got some lawyers that will tear into him like a pack of wolves!!( just a side note:there not the same wolves I always throw Jonkoppisch to, they're meaner!) lets have a pole on who all is in favor. By the way ,why dose the XPS stuff look like a Dollar Store product.It just has that appearance to me.

Buttface PM me if it gets serious I will, be in it.

Loza

[BaldEagel]

Wrightme

Please explain what any of your comments contribute to the "Independent tests prove lack of frequency hopping" thread? you have given us no test data or information that would change the opinion of anyone who has had a problem, all you have done as far as I can see is contradicted.

Please explain your purpose on this thread? and please do not say its giving a ballanced view.

Mike

[buttface]

Blah...blah...blah we all hate XPS. Just let it die.........

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by wrightme
	There IS a point you are missing here. Of those who own XPS, how many of them do you think actually get online at Flying Giants to post their experience? I would put a reasonable percent at much less than 10%. Frankly, the dollar cost is just a number. You paint the picture as if the RCG guys are not in the same class, and are all "buddy-buddy" with JD. I would state that the number of folks who actively participate in the XPS forum who even KNOW JD is less than the number on one hand. I for one, do not know him. Hop? With something like this system, you will find it much easier to "prove" instances of not hopping than to find instances of hopping. Just because you cannot find that instance of "hop" does NOT make it a non=event. I sure would like to SEE different, but really, it COULD be that the parameters have not been met in the tests so far. If you feel that lack of "proof" matters to YOU, get some other system. For me, it flies my planes great. I am beginning to actively research other brands based upon service much more so than the "hop." Bottom line? Go through and actually COUNT the numbers of posters who had good experiences, and actually COUNT the numbers of posters who had bad experiences. I have little doubt that the bad will either equal or outweigh the good posters. That does not mean that the system has a 50% or greater failure rate. It only means that those who desire to post have that rate. Which side of the fence do you think is more apt to post? Those with troubles with the system. Post counts are meaningless. If you like XPS, fly with it. If you don't, pick something else, and for goodness sakes, MOVE ON! If anyone stays this BH over an R/C system for as long as some of you have, you REALLY need to do a little self-analysis. It ain't healthy.

Okay, as a preamble, this is NOT to get into an argument with Wrightme, but to point out some glaringly OBVIOUS points that he attempted to make, that are untenable.

First off. . ONE crash due to XPS not hopping is TOO MANY I don't care what kind of plane it's in. . no hop causing a crash is a BAD thing. Wrightme, you really should admit this. . it's the only responsible way to look at it.

Secondly, in ANY scientific evalutaion of an item, a feature that cannot be MADE to function is no longer a feature. Ergo, if no one can MAKE XPS "hop" then it does not hop. . period.. . . Wrightme, I'm sure, being a logical person, that you would agree with this.

Thirdly. . it has been stated at least 10 times in this thread, and in many other places in the other RC Forum sites, that if Jim Drew could SHOW XPS hopping, we'd ALL shut up. You know how easy it would be to quell this entire discussion and render it a non-factor? Simply hook up the equipment and a video recorder, PROVE it hops, even once would do a lot of good, but several times would be better, and then everyone shuts up. You know what. . . if I was Jim, I'd have done this AGES ago. . I'd have it on my web site. . I'd be showing the world what kind of a genius I was. .I'd be putting the rest of the RC market out of business on 2.4 by proving that not only did my system work, it worked BETTER, and for less money, than my competition. Talk about a great marketing coup!!! But. . NOOOOOO. . .

Wrightme, could you explain why any business man would forego proving their system worked?? If not, then I'm sure you would agree this is a big problem for JD.

So, logically, with no PROOF that it will hop. . and tons of proof that it will NOT. . what is the SCIENTIFIC and LOGICAL conclusion that any responsible and intelligent person going to come to? It DOES NOT HOP.

And THAT, Wrightme, is the problem. . we have been lied to. . . can you prove otherwise? Can Jim Drew PROVE otherwise??? Can ANYONE PROVE IT?? If someone lies to me, I refuse to do business with him, and if he lies to my fellow modelers, I will cut the throat of his business if possible. I think most modelers are of similar attitude in this regard.

Most of what you posted puts FAITH ahead of REASON. Reasoning, thinking, and logical people look at what has gone on with XPS, and see it for what it is. It does not matter if you know JD personally or not. If you support his products beyond the call of logical and scientific evidence to the contrary of his claims, then you are his buddy. And if you question his products ability to work as advertised, you are entirely correct to do so.

Let's ask ourselves something here. . you have a complaint/problem with a product. .you get an answer to your question that is condenscending, lacks logic, and basically says "stuff it" .. I've seen some of these posts/threads that JD has deleted . .most were a lot less offensive than many I've seen here on FG. . but they were deleted. I'd like Wrightme to explain why JD would delete a post/thread, instead of just handling the matter in a straightforward manner, and resolving the problem. There is nothing more effective than ANSWERING the question, no matter how offensively the question is asked. Perhaps people became upset because JD has NEVER truly answered the questions he has been asked. I can hardly blame them.

This is not a court of law. . this is a court of PROOF. Unlike religion, where one must have Faith, this entire episode surrounding XPS should be founded on FACTS, and proof of the features Jim Drew has advertised. Here are the facts: XPS locks out, it's proven. . . . . no one can MAKE it frequency hop, it's proven. . . Jim Drew ADMITS there can be problems with the system . .it's in writing. . . . Jim Drew CANNOT show us that it hops, we'll just infer this one since he has not done so. . call it circumstantial evidence. . . . . . therefore JD has Lied to myself and my fellow modelers. . let's call it like it is.

Now, what do you think I am going to try to do to his business???

Think about it . .ONE post from Jim Drew. . . just one, showing XPS hopping in a scientifically controlled environment, would have ended this entire debacle a YEAR ago, and he'd be a hero, not a villain. Everyone has given him every opportunity to do so, yet he still refuses to. With all that pressure on him, there can be only one reason why he has not done so. . he just CAN'T. I guess it will take a court of law to finally make him SHOW us that it hops.



In closing. . any Class Action taken against XPS should be on it's own thread, separate from this one, or kept in the courts, where it belongs. Let's try to keep this civil. . . .If Jim's supporters, or the people who support XPS wish to express their views, they have every right to do so, just as those who have problems with it have every right to give their opinions as well.

PLEASE KEEP IT CIVIL.

[JEFFRO503]

Great post KRISW!!


This is what i think JD should do.

1.) first of all.....fix the system! Even if it needs to be totally revised so it works the way "he said it should"......you know , HOP!

2.) take a little finacial hit , and refund the people's money whom want to turn in his equipment . In Wrightme's mind.....there are only but a few people right? So we're only looking at a few systems being returned......correct? I think there is a buttload , but that's my opinion.


3. If he follows the first two steps , he "could" possibly totally redeem himself and stay involved in this hobby for a very long time. If the first two steps aren't taken correctly , i feel that XPS will be shunned by most of the RC community .....therefore be run out of business.



I mean hell.......if only a few people are unhappy , and want to return the system for a full refund......that's not a big hit at all.....is it? I think it would be a small price to pay to clear your name a little.


If he has to refund lets say 10 systems......BIG DEAL! Look how much somebody goes in the hole when they lose a 40% aircraft. God forbid it didn't hit anyone on the way in!

[JEFFRO503]

Question :

This is flying giants .....so why is the word giants being ****** on this site? I thought only RCU did this?

look at my previous post #856 WTF??

weird....it didn't do it on this reply hmm??

[GBR2]

Personally, I'm sure that the XPS system does hop, it is just that it does not do so under the circumstances that most people think that it should hop, such as the test that Tycho did. It appears that the hopping ability is tied to some mysterious set of circumstances that for whatever reason, XPS will not divulge. I know that LOTS of people use the system and that it does work but I have enough doubts in my own mind about the usefulness of the XPS hopping redundancy that I have essentially mothballed the small amount of equipment I did buy. I do plan to use it but only in the least expensive of aircraft that I intend to build, probably some foamy thing. As to another 2.4 system, I've moved on to something else where the lack of possible reduncdancy is not in question. Perhaps XPS can get it all sorted out, perhaps not. The system is still useable but the consumer should be aware of possible limitations of the system before employing it.

[jonkoppisch]

	Quote: Originally Posted by GBR2
	.... The system is still useable but the consumer should be aware of possible limitations of the system before employing it.

Wish that I would have had that opportunity...