Official Futaba 6EX, 7C and TM-7 Service Advisory

[XJet]

After reading Futaba's advisory and discovering that rapid power-cycling of even the 12/14 radios can cause memory corruption I've got to say I'm pretty shocked at the way these systems appear to have been designed.

There's just *no way* you allow the power to any system which performs regular FLASH/EEPROM writes to be removed without some kind of inbuilt protection against such a memory-update being interrupted. In the world of embedded systems it's just something you don't do -- and those who ignore this rule do-so at their own peril.

I'm actually amazed that Futaba use a hard-switch on the power to their radios -- a virtual/soft switch would solve the entire problem and is *very* easy to implement at the design stage.

What's a virtual switch?

Well chances are the PC you're using right now uses virtual-switch technology. If you hit the power button on the PC, it won't just suddenly stop -- it'll go into shutdown, write any important stuff to the hard-drive and only *then* turn off the actual power to the processor. This is how Futaba's RC gear should work -- simply saying "don't cycle the power too quickly" is ridiculous.

Turning your PC off by hitting the virtual switch won't cause any corruption or data-loss. Pulling the plug from the wall however (which is effectively what happens when you turn off a Futaba by the sound of it) produces a much greater chance of data-loss and/or corruption.

I have no idea why Futaba didn't opt to use this kind of system on their radios, perhaps they were in a big hurry to get the 6/7 systems out the door and perhaps the use of Windows CE made it much harder to implement on the 12/14 -- but whatever the reason it is (IMHO) a very bad design choice on their part.

Gosh, if even the much maligned Microsoft Windows OS and PC makers can get it right, why can't Futaba?

The unfortunate thing here is that any "fix" to the current problem is either going to involve new hardware or chances are they'll simply upgrade the firmware to detect a zero GUID and produce a fault condition that stops the transmitter from emitting any RF. The user would then be required to return it so that the GUID could be reset.

This would be a kludge at best - so let's hope Futaba are willing to wear the (not insignificant) cost of replacing all those 6/7 logic boards or fitting some extra circuitry (probably via a daughter-board) to the existing ones.

I've always liked Futaba gear (bought my first set in the mid 1970s) and believe that FASST is the most technically sophisticated/effective 2.4GHz solution -- but the current situation simply is not good at all.

[DR10044]

	Quote: Originally Posted by davelucas
	Sweetpea , Look at this attachment . This is the UK`s handle on the situation and what Ripmax (UK Futaba Importers) are offering to Show organisers /CD`s . If Great Planes can do something similar then it may well give you guys some piece of mind . Keep smiling ! Dave Lucas

I am not seeing the attachement. Is it because I am on a mobile (Blackberry) device?

[davelucas]

Hi all again ,
Ref my last with the missing attachment - oops ! Basicly Ripmax (UK Futaba Importers ) have made the same anouncment as Great Planes . But to give Show organisers/CD`s a bit of piece of mind Ripmax are offering a test module to test all Futaba FASST sets . Lets hope Great Planes do something similar and give you guys (CD`s) across the pond some piece of mind .
Be lucky
Dave Lucas

[sweetpea]

Gotcha........thanks for the info (there was no attachment)

[qmulus]

	Quote: Originally Posted by davelucas
	Hi all again , Ref my last with the missing attachment - oops ! Basicly Ripmax (UK Futaba Importers ) have made the same anouncment as Great Planes . But to give Show organisers/CD`s a bit of piece of mind Ripmax are offering a test module to test all Futaba FASST sets . Lets hope Great Planes do something similar and give you guys (CD`s) across the pond some piece of mind . Be lucky Dave Lucas

I spoke with the shop where I purchased my 6EX FASST and they will be receiving equipment to test out their current stock. When they get it they are going to contact me so that I can get mine tested as well without the need to send it in to Futaba service.

I do think that Futaba is doing the right thing in being very proactive to put this issue to rest ASAP.

[DesertHucker]

	Quote: Originally Posted by XJet
	After reading Futaba's advisory and discovering that rapid power-cycling of even the 12/14 radios can cause memory corruption I've got to say I'm pretty shocked at the way these systems appear to have been designed.

XJet,
The 14mz does have a software switch.

How do I know?
The other week i had my radio certified here in West Australia at the Nationals.
After testing the lowest and then highest freq we then set it for my normal use freq and it hung. After waiting 10 minutes I turned the power switch of. It stayed on. I hit the reset button in the Batt compartment did nothing. stayed on. After 1/2 hour I removed the battery thinking it would have to go in for repair. Replaced the battery with no memory card, it started. re certified it again to be safe, all working.

I would not try to cycle the switch on start-up not willing to risk this on a $3000 radio. But am sure they are a software switch on the 14mz.

[crhammond]

The 12z is also a soft switch...

[craven morehead]

I couldn't resist copying and posting this reply I found on rc un@#$%^e , sounds good to me!




Gentlemen, before you speculate yourselves in to a frenzy, why not wait and see what futaba comes up with? there are an infinite number of scenarios that may take place. futaba's solution may satisfy everyone, no one, or just a few of us. when their answer arrives, then jump on here and type your brains out. This thread like all the others all over the net on this subject are full of speculation and conjecture. do any of you have lives outside of radio controlled websites? Give it a rest until we have all the information from futaba; if it's warm where you are go fly, if not spend some time in your shop or with your family. when this is over take a guesstimate of the time you wasted with speculative posts and think of what you could have constructively accomplished other than wearing out your keyboard. One last bit, unlike a good portion of you I won't be posting this reply on every website there is, I'm surprised most of you haven't figured out the fact that the same people read and post on all the sites. get a life. thank you for your apparently worthless time.

[dick hanson]

	Quote: Originally Posted by craven morehead
	I couldn't resist copying and posting this reply I found on rc un@#$%^e , sounds good to me! Gentlemen, before you speculate yourselves in to a frenzy, why not wait and see what futaba comes up with? there are an infinite number of scenarios that may take place. futaba's solution may satisfy everyone, no one, or just a few of us. when their answer arrives, then jump on here and type your brains out. This thread like all the others all over the net on this subject are full of speculation and conjecture. do any of you have lives outside of radio controlled websites? Give it a rest until we have all the information from futaba; if it's warm where you are go fly, if not spend some time in your shop or with your family. when this is over take a guesstimate of the time you wasted with speculative posts and think of what you could have constructively accomplished other than wearing out your keyboard. One last bit, unlike a good portion of you I won't be posting this reply on every website there is, I'm surprised most of you haven't figured out the fact that the same people read and post on all the sites. get a life. thank you for your apparently worthless time.

well-- OK

[Judge]

	Quote: Originally Posted by XJet
	After reading Futaba's advisory and discovering that rapid power-cycling of even the 12/14 radios can cause memory corruption I've got to say I'm pretty shocked at the way these systems appear to have been designed.

It is not "rapid cycling" on the 12/14 that can cause problems. It is interrupting the boot up/shut down by turning the power on or off. And it does not cause memory corruption. It usually locks the radio up and requires either a soft reset by removing the battery or a hard reset by using the reset button. I've done it on mine and lost no programming.

[sweetpea]

Well here you have a prime example......

Was at the field all day today flying. When I was packing up a guy I've never seen at my field before came over to talk to me about my 35% because he had just got a 50cc. He had only been flying gas planes for 5 days. What radio did he have???? A FASST 7C. He had not heard of the possible issues. He was flying blind all day today that there was the possiblity of being shot down (no matter how rare). Needless to say he was not happy. He was going to go online tonight to Futaba to read the issues.

And NO, I didn't tell him the sky was falling or even go into great detail or tell him he should pin up. I simply told him that his model radio had a service advisement from Futaba that there was a small risk of someone being on his Guid number. He wanted it checked right this minute, but I don't think our LHS here have any test equipment yet.

[XJet]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Judge
	It is not "rapid cycling" on the 12/14 that can cause problems. It is interrupting the boot up/shut down by turning the power on or off. And it does not cause memory corruption. It usually locks the radio up and requires either a soft reset by removing the battery or a hard reset by using the reset button. I've done it on mine and lost no programming.

Then that's a really poor implementation. If the switch is a virtual one, why does it not ignore any requests for a power/up down cycle from the switch until it's in a stable state? It's not rocket-science.

My opinion of Futaba's design engineers is starting to rapidly change for the worse with all these silly vulnerabilities/flaws that seem to be part of their systems.

Yes, systems like the 12/14s are complex but good engineers produce good systems no matter how complex. It's starting to look like Futaba is feeling the pinch from competition and really starting to rush their design/development/test cycle just a little too much these days.