Official Futaba 6EX, 7C and TM-7 Service Advisory - Page 8

**Boulder** · 01-19-2008, 07:01 PM

	Quote: Originally Posted by sweetpea
	Well here you have a prime example...... Was at the field all day today flying. When I was packing up a guy I've never seen at my field before came over to talk to me about my 35% because he had just got a 50cc. He had only been flying gas planes for 5 days. What radio did he have???? A FASST 7C. He had not heard of the possible issues. He was flying blind all day today that there was the possiblity of being shot down (no matter how rare). Needless to say he was not happy. He was going to go online tonight to Futaba to read the issues. And NO, I didn't tell him the sky was falling or even go into great detail or tell him he should pin up. I simply told him that his model radio had a service advisement from Futaba that there was a small risk of someone being on his Guid number. He wanted it checked right this minute, but I don't think our LHS here have any test equipment yet.

And you did exactly what is needed, spread the word!

Nice job...

sweetpea · 01-19-2008, 07:09 PM

That was my point......

I felt for the guy though. He was bummed. He bought the radio only a few days ago. He was very thankful that I told him. I asked if he went online to any R/C sites and he said no he didn't. So he would most likely have never known about the issue.

**Boulder** · 01-19-2008, 07:17 PM

	Quote: Originally Posted by sweetpea
	That was my point...... I felt for the guy though. He was bummed. He bought the radio only a few days ago. He was very thankful that I told him. I asked if he went online to any R/C sites and he said no he didn't. So he would most likely have never known about the issue.

I could be mistaken, but I think you're very wrong here. Once this get's ramped up a little, it's possible that individuals that have sent their warranty cards in, could then be contacted. There's no other way, that I can think of, to know who has these systems.

Dsp Dave · 01-19-2008, 07:52 PM

	Quote: Originally Posted by craven morehead
	I couldn't resist copying and posting this reply I found on rc un@#$%^e , sounds good to me! Gentlemen, before you speculate yourselves in to a frenzy, why not wait and see what futaba comes up with? there are an infinite number of scenarios that may take place. futaba's solution may satisfy everyone, no one, or just a few of us. when their answer arrives, then jump on here and type your brains out. This thread like all the others all over the net on this subject are full of speculation and conjecture. do any of you have lives outside of radio controlled websites? Give it a rest until we have all the information from futaba; if it's warm where you are go fly, if not spend some time in your shop or with your family. when this is over take a guesstimate of the time you wasted with speculative posts and think of what you could have constructively accomplished other than wearing out your keyboard. One last bit, unlike a good portion of you I won't be posting this reply on every website there is, I'm surprised most of you haven't figured out the fact that the same people read and post on all the sites. get a life. thank you for your apparently worthless time.

Thats the smartest thing I have read yet on this forum!

Mithrandir · 01-19-2008, 08:18 PM

I think all you geniuses oughta get t'gether and form your own RC Radio system company...
Call it FuJunioRonicsplex!!!

lol

**Boulder** · 01-19-2008, 08:23 PM

	Quote: Originally Posted by Mithrandir
	I think all you geniuses oughta get t'gether and form your own RC Radio system company... Call it FuJunioRonicsplex!!! lol

Bwahahahahahaha!!!!!!

Mith...we don't always agree, but this here, my friend, was funny!!!!

castlebravo · 01-19-2008, 08:55 PM

Well, I'll try to bring this back to questions for the manufacturer if they're still monitoring. I purchased a TM-7 module for my 9Z over christmas and am just 2 recievers away from converting the fleet over. I am concerned however I am not panicking and I am confident that Futaba will figure this out and do right by its customers.

My question is will there be a list of hobby shops that are participating with the test equipment published? I queried our local hobby shop today and they were not aware of the bulletin (this is the largest hobby shop in the Portland/Beaverton area). I explained what I had recieved (the bulletin from another club member). They were responsive and told me that they would contact the distributor to determine what the plan of action might be.

If a peice of equipment is required to be sent back to the distributor, will the whole radio need to be sent in or just the module? Also are they publishing any type of turn around time.

The switching on/off information is very cryptic. It suggest that an adequate amount of time be given for the system to "boot up" but it does not list any of the consequenses if you dont. Is there any merrit to testing this on your own radio? If I fast cycle the power switch several times do I risk damage to the module? If the requirement to re-bind to a reciever occured, would it be an indicator that you have this problem? If you cycled many times and did not have to rebind, would it be an indicator that you do not have the issue?

I understand that this issue is still very early in its gestation and some of these questions are impossible to answer at the moment. It is our nature, being involved in this hobby, that we can "handle" the technical information. I have no problem "testing for an issue" if I can be assured that it wont cause permanent damage to my equipment.

I am confident that this will be sorted out in due time.

Chris Elliott
OMAS

XJet · 01-20-2008, 03:18 AM

Lots of folks are probably wondering "what are the chances of my system developing a zero GUID" -- so I thought I'd do some "back of a table-napkin" calculations to see.

Before I start I have to say that I've made a few assumptions here that may or may not be correct so there are no guarantees that these figures are accurate, but I believe there's a high probability that they're close.

First, the corruption of the GUID probably occurs when the radio is updating data in its EEPROM. This update operation takes a finite amount of time and during that time, any interruption to the power can cause corruption -- producing the zero GUID situation.

So how long does that update take?

Well most microcontroller EEPROM takes between 3 and 4 milliseconds -- that's just 1/250ths of a second, a very tiny amount of time.

What are the chances that someone will turn the power off during that tiny window of opportunity that could corrupt the GUID?

Well that depends on how often the EEPROM is written to.

Now I'm guessing that since timer information will be stored to memory, this will be done at least once per minute -- so now we have a probability of 1/60th of 1 in 250 -- or one chance in 15,000.

So, providing you *don't* interrupt the boot sequence, odds are that one time in every 15,000 power cycles the EEPROM write operation would be caught-out and the GUID might be corrupted.

Now if we assume that during the life of an average RC transmitter, it's going to be turned on and off about 2,000-5,000 times then there's no more than a 1 in 3 chance that any given transmitter will experience the zero GUID problem during its useful lifetime.

So this whole thing sounds like a bit of a non-event doesn't it?

Unfortunately, we now need to introduce into the equation, the number of transmitters that are actually being used.

How many vulnerable transmitters are already in the field? Let's make a rough guess at the number 10,000.

Now if we assume that each of those transmitters is turned off and on six times a week, we have a number of 60,000 power cycles in total per week. With odds of 1 in 15,000 that such a power cycle will corrupt the GUID, we should therefore see about four cases of zero GUIDs appearing each week.

According to the reports mentioned on the Net over the past week, this figure seems to be pretty close.

So just four systems faulting a week -- seems a very tiny number doesn't it? And what are the chances that two systems at your club would both go faulty, pretty remote?

Maybe so, but let's not forget that this is four systems a week, every week -- and most of those whose systems do fault won't even be aware of it. They may figure that their receivers need to be rebound because that's what happens to Spektrum systems sometimes too.

If the number of zero GUID transmitters accumulates at even three per week, that's 150 units in a year. Eventually we'd see a growing number of "incidents" where Murphy's law saw one or more of these unsuspecting users shot down by another as the chances of such things happening continued to increase.

And, as I said at the outset -- I've made some pretty wild (but perhaps conservative) assumptions here.

If the write cycle of the Futaba EEPROM is slower than the 3-4mS I've assumed then the problem would be proportionately worse.

If the frequency of the EEPROM updates is more than once per minute then the problem would be proportionately worse.

If the average number of power-cycles per transmitter per week is more than the six I've suggested then the problem would be proportionately worse.

If there are more than 10,000 transmitters in use around the world then the problem would be proportionately worse.

However, I thought people might be interested in just how likely or unlikely it is that this problem would affect any individual user.

Even if you think that a 1 in 15,000 chance is so low that you needn't worry, I should remind you that people win the lottery (with much greater odds) all the time and that we've already seen evidence that suggest I'm being way too conservative in my estimates.

Perhaps Futaba can chime in with some figures that we can plug into these calculations to get a more accurate idea of how the deck is stacked right now.

dubd · 01-20-2008, 03:31 AM

	Quote: Originally Posted by Boulder
	I could be mistaken, but I think you're very wrong here. Once this get's ramped up a little, it's possible that individuals that have sent their warranty cards in, could then be contacted. There's no other way, that I can think of, to know who has these systems.

Most people do not send in warranty cards.

dubd · 01-20-2008, 03:35 AM

	Quote: Originally Posted by Dsp Dave
	Thats the smartest thing I have read yet on this forum!

Come on dude. If you're going to sport "Team Futaba" in your signature, just stay neutral on the subject. Hobbyist are going to get excited about this and there is nothing you can do about that. Making comments like that definitely does not help the Futaba brand.

Dsp Dave · 01-20-2008, 06:24 AM

	Quote: Originally Posted by dubd
	Come on dude. If you're going to sport "Team Futaba" in your signature, just stay neutral on the subject. Hobbyist are going to get excited about this and there is nothing you can do about that. Making comments like that definitely does not help the Futaba brand.

I've tried to stay neutral on the subject, but you get tired of reading the same posts over and over about speculations on whats happining and whats going on. Alot of the posts act like Futaba isn't going to do anything about the situation and we are all just going to have to learn to deal with it and that we are always going to have to worry about the resetting of the ID, and thats not true. We know there is a problem and I am sure Futaba is working around the clock to come up with a solution to the problem, they are not just going to leave people hanging.

That is all I was saying in my ealier post, I wasn't saying that because I have Team Futaba in my signature and if you knew me you would know this is true I am a very neutral person and not a brand war supporter. When JR and spektrum were having their earlier problems I never once posted on those forums. I didn't feel it was place to say anythng, I felt bad for them to have to go through anykind of learning curve or problems just like I feel bad for Futaba to have to be dealing with this right now. I feel Futaba has a very good 2.4 system and just like you guys I want them to fix this also so none of us ever have to worry about this, but speculating on what we are going to have to do and what Futaba is going to do post after post doesn't help the situation. And also at this point the resetting of the ID# is isolated to a couple of people and we don't even know if it is a problem yet amoung all the radios, but to make sure Futaba issued the advisory and asked people to send back their radios just to be

01-19-2008, 07:09 PM	#86 (permalink)
sweetpea Mythbuster-- the early years Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Whidbey Island, WA Age: 33 Posts: 4,404 Awards Showcase Total Awards: 1	Re: Official Futaba 6EX, 7C and TM-7 Service Advisory That was my point...... I felt for the guy though. He was bummed. He bought the radio only a few days ago. He was very thankful that I told him. I asked if he went online to any R/C sites and he said no he didn't. So he would most likely have never known about the issue. __________________ ___SPONSORS____________________My Home Field_____ ___________

01-19-2008, 08:18 PM	#89 (permalink)
Mithrandir Bad-ass Super Contributer! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: High Desert California, USA Age: 46 Posts: 1,381	Re: Official Futaba 6EX, 7C and TM-7 Service Advisory I think all you geniuses oughta get t'gether and form your own RC Radio system company... Call it FuJunioRonicsplex!!! lol __________________ TEAM FUTABA TEAM DURALITE FLIGHT SYSTEMS Hacker Brushless USA Composite Arf World GP38% General Atomics Aeronautical Systems Inc

01-19-2008, 08:55 PM	#91 (permalink)
castlebravo Gettin' Lower! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hillsboro,Oregon Posts: 62	Re: Official Futaba 6EX, 7C and TM-7 Service Advisory Well, I'll try to bring this back to questions for the manufacturer if they're still monitoring. I purchased a TM-7 module for my 9Z over christmas and am just 2 recievers away from converting the fleet over. I am concerned however I am not panicking and I am confident that Futaba will figure this out and do right by its customers. My question is will there be a list of hobby shops that are participating with the test equipment published? I queried our local hobby shop today and they were not aware of the bulletin (this is the largest hobby shop in the Portland/Beaverton area). I explained what I had recieved (the bulletin from another club member). They were responsive and told me that they would contact the distributor to determine what the plan of action might be. If a peice of equipment is required to be sent back to the distributor, will the whole radio need to be sent in or just the module? Also are they publishing any type of turn around time. The switching on/off information is very cryptic. It suggest that an adequate amount of time be given for the system to "boot up" but it does not list any of the consequenses if you dont. Is there any merrit to testing this on your own radio? If I fast cycle the power switch several times do I risk damage to the module? If the requirement to re-bind to a reciever occured, would it be an indicator that you have this problem? If you cycled many times and did not have to rebind, would it be an indicator that you do not have the issue? I understand that this issue is still very early in its gestation and some of these questions are impossible to answer at the moment. It is our nature, being involved in this hobby, that we can "handle" the technical information. I have no problem "testing for an issue" if I can be assured that it wont cause permanent damage to my equipment. I am confident that this will be sorted out in due time. Chris Elliott OMAS

01-20-2008, 03:18 AM	#92 (permalink)
XJet Bad-ass Super Contributer! Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New Zealand Age: 54 Posts: 717	Re: Official Futaba 6EX, 7C and TM-7 Service Advisory Lots of folks are probably wondering "what are the chances of my system developing a zero GUID" -- so I thought I'd do some "back of a table-napkin" calculations to see. Before I start I have to say that I've made a few assumptions here that may or may not be correct so there are no guarantees that these figures are accurate, but I believe there's a high probability that they're close. First, the corruption of the GUID probably occurs when the radio is updating data in its EEPROM. This update operation takes a finite amount of time and during that time, any interruption to the power can cause corruption -- producing the zero GUID situation. So how long does that update take? Well most microcontroller EEPROM takes between 3 and 4 milliseconds -- that's just 1/250ths of a second, a very tiny amount of time. What are the chances that someone will turn the power off during that tiny window of opportunity that could corrupt the GUID? Well that depends on how often the EEPROM is written to. Now I'm guessing that since timer information will be stored to memory, this will be done at least once per minute -- so now we have a probability of 1/60th of 1 in 250 -- or one chance in 15,000. So, providing you don't interrupt the boot sequence, odds are that one time in every 15,000 power cycles the EEPROM write operation would be caught-out and the GUID might be corrupted. Now if we assume that during the life of an average RC transmitter, it's going to be turned on and off about 2,000-5,000 times then there's no more than a 1 in 3 chance that any given transmitter will experience the zero GUID problem during its useful lifetime. So this whole thing sounds like a bit of a non-event doesn't it? Unfortunately, we now need to introduce into the equation, the number of transmitters that are actually being used. How many vulnerable transmitters are already in the field? Let's make a rough guess at the number 10,000. Now if we assume that each of those transmitters is turned off and on six times a week, we have a number of 60,000 power cycles in total per week. With odds of 1 in 15,000 that such a power cycle will corrupt the GUID, we should therefore see about four cases of zero GUIDs appearing each week. According to the reports mentioned on the Net over the past week, this figure seems to be pretty close. So just four systems faulting a week -- seems a very tiny number doesn't it? And what are the chances that two systems at your club would both go faulty, pretty remote? Maybe so, but let's not forget that this is four systems a week, every week -- and most of those whose systems do fault won't even be aware of it. They may figure that their receivers need to be rebound because that's what happens to Spektrum systems sometimes too. If the number of zero GUID transmitters accumulates at even three per week, that's 150 units in a year. Eventually we'd see a growing number of "incidents" where Murphy's law saw one or more of these unsuspecting users shot down by another as the chances of such things happening continued to increase. And, as I said at the outset -- I've made some pretty wild (but perhaps conservative) assumptions here. If the write cycle of the Futaba EEPROM is slower than the 3-4mS I've assumed then the problem would be proportionately worse. If the frequency of the EEPROM updates is more than once per minute then the problem would be proportionately worse. If the average number of power-cycles per transmitter per week is more than the six I've suggested then the problem would be proportionately worse. If there are more than 10,000 transmitters in use around the world then the problem would be proportionately worse. However, I thought people might be interested in just how likely or unlikely it is that this problem would affect any individual user. Even if you think that a 1 in 15,000 chance is so low that you needn't worry, I should remind you that people win the lottery (with much greater odds) all the time and that we've already seen evidence that suggest I'm being way too conservative in my estimates. Perhaps Futaba can chime in with some figures that we can plug into these calculations to get a more accurate idea of how the deck is stacked right now.


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