Problems!! 14MZ 2.4 R6014FS

[fastford]

I spoke with Mark Trent today, he told me it has been mild at the Nall. 1 day in the low 80's. He has not reported any problems with any of his 3 planes with the 6014. There definatly has been branches reaching out a grabbing airplanes, as well as some sort of Sea Monster in the lake that is grabbing rudders and eating airplanes. Only 1 lock out of some sorts. New Dalton driving its way threw the trees. Not pretty.

Jason

[Jurgen Heilig]

	Quote: Originally Posted by cyco
	there wont be any problem if you dont burn your RX in the sun... keep it cold like puttying a towel over the canopy. and if you have enough Air in and outtake in your fuselage nothing will happen. i dont know why knobody made this "trouble" by 35MHZ 72MHZ and so on... ic specs havent changed much well, even in my Delro XXL Raven (3,1meters span) with open resos/pipes in the fuselage i dont have probs at the hottest temps with the 6014 Fasst. -correct airflow in the fuselage, sure. regards, Chris

First chapter is important. If your rx does not fail on the ground, it will unlikely overheat in the air.

Well, while the specs of the IC's have not changed that much, it is the first time we have receivers consuming 10 to 20 times more energy than in the past, i.e. noticeably warming up against ambient temperature.

The hottest temperatures in Germany might not be as hot as extreme temperatures in other parts of the world.

Jürgen

[reyn3545]

I'm not at Nall, but I live a few hours away.. the weather for the last few days has been cloudy, light rain, temps in the mid-70's.

It should be clear and sunny for the weekend, so we'll see if something more than raindrops start littering the runways!

[Mithrandir]

	Quote: Originally Posted by bodywerks
	................ But the bottom line is that other manufacturers aren't having this problem, (No, they had other problems!! mds) and as far as I know, Futaba receivers used to not have this problem. Now there is a problem, and it is unreasonable to ask the end user to make sure they properly ventilate their receivers to avoid thermal shutdown - period, plain and simple, end of conversation. ...................

Well... hold on a second....
With the "Old JR" (or airtronics or futaba stuff).. there was never a "Brown Out" Problem and there was never a "Blocked Field of View" problem... (for the antennas)
and the solutions were what we have today... D-Cups, High Power Batt/regs and satallite Rx's..... (And it wasn't unreasonable to ask the end user to buy these items?!)

Those solutions are no less of a nuissance then providing a little ventilation of air inside the plane... except cutting small inlet and exhaust holes don't cost money. (The D-Cups, addtnl Rx's do)

Have I had problems with my 2.4 FASST..??.. No...
am I going to be cautious of extreme temps of my system.. Yes...

Technology changes things.. there is sometimes a "Give'n'Take"...

[grayuk]

	Quote: Originally Posted by grayuk
	I have flown the 6EX and now the 12FG, receivers used are 6,8 and 14 channel. I have had ZERO problems with the gear; it has functioned perfectly in prop and jet alike. Temps in the UK are not as hot as we are seeing on this thread but, on the hottest days last year and the coldest days in the winter, I never had one issue. The servo deflection is a pain, but not a real problem, and the temp issue that this thread is concerned with only kicks in at extremes forced by radiant heating. I intend to monitor rx temps on the ground during the summer months and compare with ambient (just out of interest). I was reading through an RCJI last night, the one with the boomer on the cover (Feb-March 08). There is an interesting comment in there by Dave Wiltshire in the ‘New to turbines’ section). He is talking about the Spekrum system and states…”with the Spektrum System the components used means that the maximum safe temperature is 85C”…. which is 185F (just 18F deg above Futaba) so it appears there is a documented lower limit on these as well. As is known, these temps cannot be reached with just normal ambient, but on very hot days, rx exposed to direct sunlight, both systems are vulnerable… Along with the Futaba at 167F it makes you wonder how many mysterious crashes have been caused by this that have been attributed to other issues??? It looks to me that this is something that is inherent with the technology; maybe we just need to re-consider our installations. It is something we have had to do many times over as new technologies come along. Consider the learning curve associated with Turbines! Many crashes were the result of ‘conventional’ installs that were just not up to turbines demands. Big spark engines are another; more powerful digi servo's requiring higher powered systems and power boxs.......we had to change to move with the technology. This is true with the FASST lower voltage issue on servos, manufacturers of servos and add on powerboxs etc. are changing to match the technology change. Those of us that are old enough will remember when the pulse width changed on rx outputs, (1.5ms to 1.2ms I think). It was a pain; our entire stock of old servo’s had the wrong centres. I think we have to prepare ourselves for the fact that this may not be a ‘design issue’ or a ‘batch problem’ it may be the technology 'as it stands', we may have to live with it and adapt… Paul

Mithrandir
I agree
Paul

[bgold]

	Quote: Originally Posted by bodywerks
	I know there is probably a lot of useful info in here, and d_wheel, I am sure you are right that heat is the enemy of electronics. But the bottom line is that other manufacturers aren't having this problem, and as far as I know, Futaba receivers used to not have this problem. Now there is a problem, and it is unreasonable to ask the end user to make sure they properly ventilate their receivers to avoid thermal shutdown - period, plain and simple, end of conversation. Futaba needs to address this, and they need to start doing so YESTERDAY!.

So your waiting in car with the windows up for your wife/friend to finish shopping and the interior of the car starts to superheat are you going to argue that your body should have been built to withstand the superheated temperatures and avoided thermal shutdown - period, plain and simple or are you going to roll the window down.

[reyn3545]

Well, by the time next Monday rolls around, it will have been almost a month since Futaba was made aware of possible heat related end user problems. I know the first week was a holiday in Japan.

When I tell my sales VP that business was slow because of a holiday, the immediate response is "Don't we have a (insert holiday here) every year? Why should this year be any different? Go sell something!

The same holds true here. Holidays will come and go, but at the end of the day, the "owner" of the problem must be seen as moving the ball closer to the goal line. To date, I haven't seen that. We've all done testing with our own available resources, and independantly confirmed that it apprears to be heat related. It took each of us a matter of hours to do that.

Judge, Bill Baxter and others... you have a responsibility to those who send you T-shirts to advise them that the temperature of the user community has a direct relationship to the temperature of the situation. We've sat here with absolutely no formal word, other than "we're aware and looking at it". At this point, that's not acceptable. Sorry to put the onus on you guys... its no my decision, its Futaba's. You are the only point of recourse for an end user.

Will Tower take back all of my equipment or convert it over to 72MHz until the problem is formally addressed? Can I go back to the guy that I sold my X9303 to and get it back? I don't think so. Can I speak to Futaba directly. Nope.

I've been patient, I've asked others on this thread to do the same... but we do need some sense of ownership and direction from Futaba. We bought from them for a variety of reasons.

Some have long standing realtionships with them. I am a new customer, understanding enough to know that taking this plunge might also cause me to update other components in my airplanes. To that extent, I didn't flinch to spend $300 more each and add power boxes to the planes that used 5955 servos. The day that Futaba released the memo about servo voltages, I ordered the equipment and grounded my planes until they were updated.

Now, I await word again from Futaba. As soon as they release detailed expectations, based on thier knowledge of the products and environments in which they operate, I will take appropriate action. Everyone reading this thread will do the same. We only follow and post on it because we care. I'm coming to believe that Futaba doesn't post on it because they don't care.

[reyn3545]

Take a look at the following quote (others have mentioned it already) from Futaba's announcement about their 2.7 volt technology....

Some battery back-up devices might have difficulties with the lower operational voltages as well, although they might not appear to initially. One such device functions perfectly on the ground and during a range check, yet when the operational temperature reaches 50 degrees C (122 degrees F), the device actually requires 2.8 Volts in order to function properly. As such, the servos will cease to operate properly.

Now, I'm no expert, and I'm not trying to read anything into their words, but when I read that paragraph, it says that some less than stellar manufacturers may have taken shortcuts and included components that are more voltage hungry as the component temperatures increase... hmmmm.....

Could it be a situation where some of the receivers components, as they heat up, require more voltage than the system can provide? hmmm... Maybe if there were some sort of data port on the unit that could capture and report that type of info... Oh, I forgot, that was for factory use only. I bet that changes about the time the problem gets resolved.

[reyn3545]

	Quote: Originally Posted by bgold
	So your waiting in car with the windows up for your wife/friend to finish shopping and the interior of the car starts to superheat are you going to argue that your body should have been built to withstand the superheated temperatures and avoided thermal shutdown - period, plain and simple or are you going to roll the window down.

I guess using your analogy, I'd have to say that if my wife/friend had left me the freekin keys so that I could get the windows down, I certainly would. Also, my understanding was she was going in for a box of kotex, not a full shopping trip.

[03fomoco]

	Quote: Originally Posted by cyco
	there wont be any problem if you dont burn your RX in the sun... keep it cold like puttying a towel over the canopy. and if you have enough Air in and outtake in your fuselage nothing will happen. i dont know why knobody made this "trouble" by 35MHZ 72MHZ and so on... ic specs havent changed much well, even in my Delro XXL Raven (3,1meters span) with open resos/pipes in the fuselage i dont have probs at the hottest temps with the 6014 Fasst. -correct airflow in the fuselage, sure. regards, Chris

Chris, ok so how do you safely ventilate an already built semi-monocoque airplane like a comp ARF? Have I now assumed the risk of flight failure with my modification?

It took less than 5 minutes for this to happen on a 88 degree day:

Problems!! 14MZ 2.4 R6014FS

Let's say I uncover my nice cool airplane, start the engine and do a range check as stated in every manual on this planet and then taxi to the far end of the runway, which is black and probably has a surface temp of over 180 degrees on a 100 degree AZ day. And then press on for takeoff, am I being a safe pilot, have I taken all steps necessary to mitigate the risk. Why am I assuming the risk mitigation for this one issue, I have enough on my plate with the rest of the aircraft. Lastly why is the single most important part of the entire aircraft the weak link? Shouldn't this part be grossly over engineered for all the dumb a$$'s like myself?

Dave

[d_wheel]

	Quote: Originally Posted by bodywerks
	I know there is probably a lot of useful info in here, and d_wheel, I am sure you are right that heat is the enemy of electronics. But the bottom line is that other manufacturers aren't having this problem, and as far as I know, Futaba receivers used to not have this problem. Now there is a problem, and it is unreasonable to ask the end user to make sure they properly ventilate their receivers to avoid thermal shutdown - period, plain and simple, end of conversation. Futaba needs to address this, and they need to start doing so YESTERDAY!.

I'm sorry, but nothing is ever that black and white. Just because no one was having trouble before doesn't mean everyone was doing things the "right way". There wasn't any known trouble with the Shuttle launch method until one day a chunk of foam came off and the end results were catastrophic. Things have changed drastically now to try and avoid a repeat of the incident. They had been doing it the same way for years but had not been doing it the "right way". They had simply gotten away with it all those years.

I feel sure that many of us will never have any trouble with our Futaba receivers no matter how hot it gets outside because we were doing things to keep our aircraft cooler before and will continue to do so. Some of my battery packs have "heat dots" stuck to them that change color if the temperature rises above 150 degrees. I have never had one of these activate and have been flying electrics for 4 years now both summer and winter. If I can keep the inside of my aircraft below this threshold with a hot battery inside and heat generated by the sun I am sure you will be able to do the same with no internal heat source at all.

Yes, Futaba needs to look into this. They may or may not feel it is necessary to do anything about it. I hope they do, but am not holding my breath because 160 degrees is way to hot to be letting our equipment get up to. In the mean time, I will continue flying my FASST equipment without worrying about the temperature (and it can get up to 105 in the shade here in the summer).

Later;

D.W.

[bodywerks]

	Quote: Originally Posted by bgold
	So your waiting in car with the windows up for your wife/friend to finish shopping and the interior of the car starts to superheat are you going to argue that your body should have been built to withstand the superheated temperatures and avoided thermal shutdown - period, plain and simple or are you going to roll the window down.

We aren't talking "superheated temperatures", here. we are talking about, what appears to be, a mere 130 degrees or so. We are talking about a temperature that other brand receivers aren't having a problem withstanding.
Here in Arizona, if a roadrunner farts near my plane, the surrounding temps will exceed 130 degrees and there's nothing I can do about it!
In some climates, it is simply impossible to keep temps below 130 degrees in our aircraft or electronic components. Maybe Futaba should have an addendum that says "not recommended for use in the lower southwest/southcentral/southeast regions of the united states during the months of may through mid-october".