Joe Nall and Mufflers??

[invert0914]

No joke that it will kill attendance. I my self and many others I know can't afford canisters and or they don't fit in our model. I wouldn't have the first clue how to butcher my carden cap and have heard I would be better off buying a new airplane desighned for cans. Carden 40% Cap was not. I guess my many years of going and support will have to end. I guess that would make my cap useless. Anyone that dosn't fly 3D modles are finished. No Warbirds, Lasers, Citabrias, or any civil aircraft for that matter. But who cares 3d aircraft have almost completely taken over the show. I think it would be a big mistake. I understand noise control but stock mufflers and the proper prop make a huge differance. I guess Matt Chapman better get some cans cause I know he dosn't qualify under the future noise restrictions. This baffles me.

[yakwrecker]

	Quote: Originally Posted by invert0914
	No joke that it will kill attendance. I my self and many others I know can't afford canisters and or they don't fit in our model. I wouldn't have the first clue how to butcher my carden cap and have heard I would be better off buying a new airplane desighned for cans. Carden 40% Cap was not. I guess my many years of going and support will have to end. I guess that would make my cap useless. Anyone that dosn't fly 3D modles are finished. No Warbirds, Lasers, Citabrias, or any civil aircraft for that matter. But who cares 3d aircraft have almost completely taken over the show. I think it would be a big mistake. I understand noise control but stock mufflers and the proper prop make a huge differance. I guess Matt Chapman better get some cans cause I know he dosn't qualify under the future noise restrictions. This baffles me.

I have a GP cap and there is no way im going to butcher it just for the extra weight of cans. What are you going to do its in Pats hands for now

[yakwrecker]

by the way invert if thats your plane on your avitar she a beaut.

[KrisW]

For 5 years now we have been going forward with the "quiet revolution". There is NO excuse for not having canisters in your plane. "I cant afford them". . in a $5000 plane is just absurd .. . . they cost $150 more than standard in-cowl mufflers. "I can't get them to fit" is. . again. .ABSURD. "I don't like the added weight". . .Gee. . go get a CF wing tube, ditch the smoke you never use anyway, get a CF spinner, or quit buying HEAVY engines.

Last year I showed up with a BME50 powered 82" Frenzy fun fly. . with a Canister exhaust. Very quiet. . more power, and very acceptable noise-wise at any time, especially during Nght Flying. This year I'm not only bringing a 50cc version of the plane, but am building a 92" version powered by a BME-110 with a big canister muffler mounted inside the fuselage to silence the exhaust. The fuselage is 4" wide internally, yet I find room for a Canister Exhaust system.

There is NO excuse for having a loud exhaust on your plane any more. I salute Pat Hartness and the entire Triple Tree crew for stepping up and showing the way in this area.

Now, if we could just convince people to quiet down those propellers. . . .

[invert0914]

I assume kris these are once again aerobatic planes. I can't wait to see all those b17's and cessnas with cans on the G38's. Every one who fly's any aircraft that is giant scale can't fly if you don't have cans. There are 100's of aircraft that cans will not fit in. Ok lets go buy a can for my 26cc J3 Cub!!!!!. I DON'T THINK SO. How about that 26cc Tylor craft, PT19, Cessna, Piper, Beach Craft, Stearman, Great Planes Pitts, Robin Hood, P51 Mustang, The list is endless. Lets Just call it the YAK, EXTRA, AND EDGE NALL. You can not tell me all these aircraft can use cans. There are 100's of piolets who have enjoyed Joe Nall that can not fly if this is the rule. Cans are designed for 3D aircraft.

[MattyMatt]

I agree with Kris. I've been in this hobby 25 years now, and have seen a lot of clubs loose their fields for the same reason... NOISE. It has not been a question of if they should be quieter but how much, at what level. IMAC has had a noise restriction in their rules for years, but not really enforced it at 96 db.

I flew pattern for years and it hasn't been a question since the early 90's. I'm glad Pat is moving forward with this. I was at the Masters and he said then, ALL future events must meet their noise restrictions.

Now, I agree with Invert0914 that all these other planes can't fit cans, and my response is that many don't need them. A G23 stock muffler is quiet.

This is nothing new... it is a VERY serious issue for all motorsports. I was very involved with Drag Racing for a number of years and most of the tracks have the same issue or are already being shut down. Same with the smaller airports around the country. Contact AOPA and ask them how serous this is... like half the number of general aviation airports have disappeared the last 20 years...

If we wait for someone to complain about noise... it is already too late. I can't even react to the point that it is too expensive to run effective mufflers or cans. It should be a required part of the plane... just like the prop. Not an optional one.

Please understand that I'm not picking a fight... this is purely reality.

Enforcing a sound restriction will not kill the Nall, not running an effective muffler will for sure.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by invert0914
	I assume kris these are once again aerobatic planes. I can't wait to see all those b17's and cessnas with cans on the G38's. Every one who fly's any aircraft that is giant scale can't fly if you don't have cans. There are 100's of aircraft that cans will not fit in. Ok lets go buy a can for my 26cc J3 Cub!!!!!. I DON'T THINK SO. How about that 26cc Tylor craft, PT19, Cessna, Piper, Beach Craft, Stearman, Great Planes Pitts, Robin Hood, P51 Mustang, The list is endless. Lets Just call it the YAK, EXTRA, AND EDGE NALL. You can not tell me all these aircraft can use cans. There are 100's of piolets who have enjoyed Joe Nall that can not fly if this is the rule. Cans are designed for 3D aircraft.

Uh.. .no. . its not an aerobatic plane. It's a hyper-manuverability prototype. Calling it a Fun Fly is actually an insult to its capability.

If the warbird and Scale guys wanted to. . they COULD put quiet exhaust systems in their planes. In a radial cowled setup its just stupidly easy to install a canister, and there is nothing sweeter, or quieter, than a TRUE radial gasser in a radial cowl. On a P-51 a dedicated modeler could find places to put things like a properly bent header setup and large muffler elsewhere in the fuselage. . such as routing the header behind the engine to a large pipe that dumps out the back of the fuselage, or even (God forbid) has a front exhaust stinger that is routed out the Scale exhaust outlets. And all those large scale planes with Boxer engines in the cowl could easily run a Y pipe header from the opposed cylinders into an oversized muffler behind the engine.

Then, there's always the "Electric" option. Given the lack of need for torque rollng and 3D with a Warbird or scale job, it would be ultra simple to simply go electric! The setups already exist, with enough power to TR a 30 lbs plane. It would be a simple bolt in for most Warbirds and Scale planes that already exist, and would be UBER cool.

So. . please . .there really are no excuses. Unless you just don't want to fly, that is.

[invert0914]

How many DB'S does a 150 cc motor produce with Standard mufflers? And there are way to many scale aircraft that I know are loader.

[MattyMatt]

Oh yeah... I'm about to propose the same restriction at our club. 96db.

[Colonel Klank]

	Quote: Originally Posted by invert0914
	How many DB'S does a 150 cc motor produce with Standard mufflers? And there are way to many scale aircraft that I know are loader.

I clocked a 150cc motor with a 32 X 10, 2 blade prop, stock mufflers at 25 feet and got 102 dB.

[MattyMatt]

If you are a neighbor... it doesn't matter wheather it is a 50% pitts with a 4 cylinder 3W212 on standard mufflers or a Quickie 500 with a Jet 50 turining 18,000 RPM. Noise is noise.

[GMoney]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Pale_Rider_Va
	I clocked a 150cc motor with a 32 X 10, 2 blade prop, stock mufflers at 25 feet and got 102 dB.

That has to be one of the loudest props on the market! Its not the cans its the DB's Once the folks at the Nall figure out how they are going to measure sound, what equipment they are going to use its easy. At 25' cans arent mandatory. A good prop will do the job. I have tested way to many Aerobatic birds and we use 15' at all four corners. 106Db's with the 25' range its only going to hit the absurdly loud birds. I would wait and see what they actually set the limit at before I cancel my travel plans. Another thing to consider is the technology that will come from this. I have it on good authority you tell a modeler he cant do something he will lock himself in his shop until he proves you wrong. I see some killer cans coming out that will work bettter than what we have and cost less. weight less also.. if anybody casres I can try and post a summary of my clubs findings over a two year span.