Joe Nall and Mufflers??

[EddieWeeks]

I have been flying the Variable Pitch for months now and have gone to a few
Big bird events with the plane. What I have learned is, the VPP with forward only props is WAY quieter than any gas plane I have seen fly.... Mostly because the RPMs are keep to below 6000. You can hover at 6000 rpms and go 120 mph at 6000… Just something I found. DA100 28” VPP Pipes

Eddie Weeks

[TheTank]

	Quote: Originally Posted by TeamFlatout
	AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPpppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp Fortunately I fly at a field that will never be lost for any reason and doesnt have a noise requirement.

You think this is true... but all it takes is one person building a house near you. You can own the land yourself, and they can still shut you down... so believing that your field cant be lost for any reason couldnt be further from the truth. All it takes is one complaint for the government to shut you down.

Craig, have you flown a plane on cans that was set up properly? My throttle response is as good if not better with my MTWs than with mufflers. I cant remember if you have flown my Yak or not... but I definetly like my throttle setup better than Bernie's (for comparison) with the same motor/prop/airplane but mufflers versus can, and he has a linear setup and runs a curve. I dont run any curve, completely linear.

[BigBird]

TeamFlatout,
Your living in a dream if you think that your field cannot be lost. There are many reasons you could loose any field. Noise is without question #1 right now.
I must confess that I was a stubborn convert to cans mainly due to the simplicity of standard mufflers. I build a 40% Carden 330 in 04 and put MTW's in it. That was the best move ever. I have an AW 260 35% with stock mufflers that I cring to fly because it so damn loud. There is no good excuse for not running/ self policing sound at this time. If we don't quite down the places to fly will be lost faster than ever. Granted a lot of field losses have to due with towns growing around them. I'm positive that many of those places could have nursed at least one to two more years out of a site if they were were not as loud. Here are some of the excuses and answers to why people need to hush and lump it. Weight penalty/ MTW's weigh 1.25 pounds more than stock mufflers. Giving the mounting a large allowance of .75 pounds you add 2 pounds over standard diverters. On a 40 pound airplane that is only 5% of the total weight. The weight of standard mufflers is 2.5% of the total. So basicly your telling me you can't give up 2.5% of the total weight of your airplane that has 2:1 power to weight ratio? That one doesn't hold any water does it. Granted if you have a pig adding weight will not help the wing loading. But that doesn't matter if you have no where to fly it. Next excuse is they don't fit. There are 100's of diffrent can/header combos that will get them into just about anything. A Carden Cap is one of the toughest due to the low wing placement. MTW has 110k that are shorter and fatter and slide right in. Just because you buddy has a set that won't fit does not mean there is nothing that will fit. Throttle response is not as clean/ First try making the throttle linkage have some resolution. Temptation is smiling right now. If your ATV on the throttle is not at least 130% both ways the linkage is garbage. This is true with any engine regardless what muffler/pipes it has. If that still isn't clean enough fire up that 1200 dollar Tx and turn on the throttle curve. A lot of the midrange claims are due to the fact the sound is less so you think the engine is not putting out the thrust.
I know this will stir up some crap but it is time we do something now. I don't care if you like it or not we have to get the noise down or quit flying at the sites that are reasonably close to where you live.
BB

[RollingHarrier]

I'll thow in here since the Tank mentioned my P47 in his post. My P47 is getting a new exhaust but only because the old one weighs a ton. There is absolutely no way to put two cans in that P47 for a 144cc inline twin engine. I also have a yellow aircraft P47 running a G62 and a stock exhaust and there is no way that would be quieter than a 96db limit.
As far as cans go I have a Chip Hyde extra with a DA100 and KS cans. Transition sucks for 3D, and I have a positive EXP curve (futaba) to help clear the exhaust. It should be good for the IMAC though. And I've had experienced people try to adjust the motor to get it to run properly on cans. Barny Liftoff had the same problem with his DA150 on cans.
I had JMB canisters on my ZDZ160 when I first got the plane. After the header broke I switched to standard exhaust and the performance improvement in the mid-range was very noticable.
Why did the pro's switch to standard exhaust and 2 bladed props at TAS when they had the quite setup at the masters?
Makes ya think.

There have also been times when I've been to a club with a DB limit (Tank) where there were guys flying glow birds that far exceeded the DB limit (diego Red with a ST 90 non-stock muffler) and nobody said anything to him.
So I think gas birds get a bad rap.
Just my .02.

[GremlinX]

Nobody says that the warbirds have to have canisters..... if they make the db reading.... then fine. Overprop it and 3-4 bladed scale props will help too....

[AHP]

There are no real noise restrictions at my club and I have never heard a single word and/or complaint about it. I have absolutely no desire to put cans on any of my planes (especially my Carden Cap). They pose absolutely no benefit to me. More money, more weight, more work and potentially degraded performance? No thanks. I, personally, like it LOUD! I love the sound of a ripping prop and nothing is more satisfying than the baritone growl of my 150 shaking my chest while torque rolling over the runway. Give me that any day over the shrill scream of a glow-powered plane or the monotonous whine of a heli. Both of which may register a few less decibels, but are significantly more annoying

[JeeUm]

Honestly, I've never noticed a transition problem on cans. It could be that I've been running them for so long I just do feel it.

I do agree 100% about the problem warbirds are going to have. Usually the cowl is so tight there is no other option then to run a stock exhaust diverter(aka muffler). Of course there are some warbirds out there that you can install a quieter exhaust system but they're few and far between.

I do think a better selection of prop will help quite a bit with warbirds. Instead of running a Zinger and letting it rip from one end of the field to another, slap a Mejzlik on there.

Other then that, Warbird guys are going to be at a severe disadvantage at the Nall if anything "Official" is announced, which it hasn't been yet.

[Temptation]

	Quote: Originally Posted by AHP
	There are no real noise restrictions at my club and I have never heard a single word and/or complaint about it. I have absolutely no desire to put cans on any of my planes (especially my Carden Cap). They pose absolutely no benefit to me. More money, more weight, more work and potentially degraded performance? No thanks. I, personally, like it LOUD! I love the sound of a ripping prop and nothing is more satisfying than the baritone growl of my 150 shaking my chest while torque rolling over the runway. Give me that any day over the shrill scream of a glow-powered plane or the monotonous whine of a heli. Both of which may register a few less decibels, but are significantly more annoying

I used to feel the same way. Now I can't stand the sound of regular muff's. Trust me, you will not lose any performance. I gained performance when I put them on my Carden Cap. You need to keep in mind, you are not the only one that has to listen to that thing.

Mike Darr

[TeamFlatout]

	Quote: Originally Posted by BigBird
	TeamFlatout, Your living in a dream if you think that your field cannot be lost. There are many reasons you could loose any field. Noise is without question #1 right now. I must confess that I was a stubborn convert to cans mainly due to the simplicity of standard mufflers. I build a 40% Carden 330 in 04 and put MTW's in it. That was the best move ever. I have an AW 260 35% with stock mufflers that I cring to fly because it so damn loud. There is no good excuse for not running/ self policing sound at this time. If we don't quite down the places to fly will be lost faster than ever. Granted a lot of field losses have to due with towns growing around them. I'm positive that many of those places could have nursed at least one to two more years out of a site if they were were not as loud. Here are some of the excuses and answers to why people need to hush and lump it. Weight penalty/ MTW's weigh 1.25 pounds more than stock mufflers. Giving the mounting a large allowance of .75 pounds you add 2 pounds over standard diverters. On a 40 pound airplane that is only 5% of the total weight. The weight of standard mufflers is 2.5% of the total. So basicly your telling me you can't give up 2.5% of the total weight of your airplane that has 2:1 power to weight ratio? That one doesn't hold any water does it. Granted if you have a pig adding weight will not help the wing loading. But that doesn't matter if you have no where to fly it. Next excuse is they don't fit. There are 100's of diffrent can/header combos that will get them into just about anything. A Carden Cap is one of the toughest due to the low wing placement. MTW has 110k that are shorter and fatter and slide right in. Just because you buddy has a set that won't fit does not mean there is nothing that will fit. Throttle response is not as clean/ First try making the throttle linkage have some resolution. Temptation is smiling right now. If your ATV on the throttle is not at least 130% both ways the linkage is garbage. This is true with any engine regardless what muffler/pipes it has. If that still isn't clean enough fire up that 1200 dollar Tx and turn on the throttle curve. A lot of the midrange claims are due to the fact the sound is less so you think the engine is not putting out the thrust. I know this will stir up some crap but it is time we do something now. I don't care if you like it or not we have to get the noise down or quit flying at the sites that are reasonably close to where you live. BB

No I'm not living in a dream. Um yall are all wrong. You cant loose the field when the owner who owns the field and hobbyshop on the field and owns all the land and surrounding land that is all farm land. So I'm not way off as all of you claim.

[AHP]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Temptation
	You need to keep in mind, you are not the only one that has to listen to that thing.

Understood and agreed; however, I usually fly in the afternoons when the peanut gallery has cleared out. By then it’s usually just me and a few friends (who are noise purists like me). I don’t bring out the Carden to fly laps with the rest of the circle flyers. My planes are far from the loudest, though.

I’m very much aware that noise is a real problem with a lot of clubs. I’m lucky enough to not have to worry about it at present. Someday things may change – I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it.

[BigBird]

	Quote: Originally Posted by TeamFlatout
	No I'm not living in a dream. Um yall are all wrong. You cant loose the field when the owner who owns the field and hobbyshop on the field and owns all the land and surrounding land that is all farm land. So I'm not way off as all of you claim.

Ok that sounds like there is no possible way. Anything is possible, there was a feild like that in Neosho,MO back in the 90's. Its a 4 lane freeway now. Money talks and your hobbyshop owner will sell that sucker in a second if someone else wants it bad enough. I know you think who would want to pay for land out in the middle of nothing. Walmart, Nascar track, Amusement park, Subdivision, etc. etc. Need we go on?
Jason

[AHP]

	Quote: Originally Posted by BigBird
	Ok that sounds like there is no possible way. Anything is possible, there was a feild like that in Neosho,MO back in the 90's. Its a 4 lane freeway now. Money talks and your hobbyshop owner will sell that sucker in a second if someone else wants it bad enough. I know you think who would want to pay for land out in the middle of nothing. Walmart, Nascar track, Amusement park, Subdivision, etc. etc. Need we go on? Jason

You could also get hit my a meteor while holding a winning lottery ticket.. I think the main point was noise is most certainly not a concern.