Flying Giants Challenge!!!

[Biff]

Okay electro-boys! We've seen the electric craze take off (pun intended). But to what end? There's a bunch of electric competitions and fun fly'ins. But our planes still look like planes. I'm thinking WAY outside the box. I think we need to broaden our scope of what electric flight can be. Helicopters still look like helis, airframes still look like airframes. WHY?

I view electric flight as the perfect venue for the creative mind. Motors,batteries,speed controllers etc. are rock solid and relatively inexpensive. I say let's clear the chalk board and re-think what we're doing! I fully understand that form follows function. The Write brothers got things rolling a LONG time ago. We're still pretty much approaching design the same way they did.

Here's a challenge; come up with something COMPLETELY NEW AND ORIGINAL!! Why not start with a mylar "fuse" filled with helium? Why not use wingerons ? Why not use tail rotor assembly off of electric choppers for roll control? Why, why, why, why????

I say RE-THINK EVERYTHING!!! This type of experimenting wouldn't work with 40%. It's too expensive to fool around with and If you compete,the 10% rule would give you a very expensive toy. Glow stuff would be the next step after proving your design with foam or what ever your choice of materials are.

My thought about all this stuff is simple. New maneuvers are going to get more and more scarce as we are limited by the standard "airplane" design. VP was such a GIANT step forward, but really didn't change things in a radical way. Want some truly new maneuvers? WE NEED A TRULY NEW FLYING MACHINE DESIGN!!!

I've been thinking about a neutrally buoyant airframe with VP on a couple axis. Why not? WAY easier to fly than a heli or airplane and FAR more maneuverable than both! Heck,,get in trouble? Shut off the motors! Kind of a "Nerf" 3D monster!!

Something like this would be an indoor airship. But think of what it could do! It would bounce as opposed to break. Anyone with left right capability could fly it. New maneuvers could be invented EVERY TIME you fly it,,, the list goes on and on.

What I'm saying here is forget everything you know about what we fly and do what modelers do; be creative!!! My 3D blimp-0-Chopp-O-plane is just there as food for thought. BREAK THE MOLD gentlemen!!! Conform to status quo? NEVER!!!! Be modelers, be creative!! Let's see something BRAND NEW!!!!

PLEASE share ideas and sketches! Let's get this thing rolling!

I propose we do the build thread in a completely different way as well. Let's brain storm with all the knowledge the Flying Giants have! How about we all throw our ideas together. Then we'll take our master plan and assign sub assemblies to members of the Giants. As we get sub Assembly's working,we'll have a member with expertise and some time build the thing.

Flying Giants will talk to some of our sponsors for support on this project. I'm sure we'll get support,so it can be good for all of us! I'm sure our buddy Robert Vess will be a wealth of info and support. Perhaps Baron Johnson and George Hicks can add some thoughts as well. These guys are some of the brightest minds going!

Don't be shy guys! Share your thoughts no matter how crazy your ideas! It's the crazy ideas that we need! THAT will be what will make the difference on this project. LET'S BREAK OUT OF ACCEPTED,NORMAL THOUGHT AND DO SOMETHING NEW!!!! All ideas welcome!

I honestly feel with the level of talent in our membership we can change how we look at flying and take it to another level. Sound like a big statement? It is! We can do this guys! All we need is open minds and a reason to pool our talents and resources! Let's do this!

[Kuba]

Great idea :]

I've been thinking about this, and I have some ideas how to make models more crazy.

The first thing I would like to do (but i can't due to costs and skill) are "prop ailerons". I thought about replacing traditional ailerons with 2 fans, one per a wing. They could be placed at the center of the wing. I think that strong engines could not only provide harrier-like start, but also could be used together with nose engine in hoovering. Imagine torque-rolling with speed of 2 rounds per second or even faster


I think that my idea is crazy enough to place it here ;]

[SleepyC]

WOW - way to keep a seceret Mr. Biff.

Contest = Shocker!!!

What a totally amazing idea.
Squeeze the creative mind and get a crazy flying device out of the unknown aerologist!!

NICE!!!

I for one will be taking this seriously.
Expect a unique flying machine from me!!
(well I hope it flys!!)

But I can't wait to see what all you guys come up with!

BAD ASS BIFF and MAX... good idea...

Biff you eat your wheaties today????

[Nitrohuffer]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Kuba
	Great idea :] I've been thinking about this, and I have some ideas how to make models more crazy. The first thing I would like to do (but i can't due to costs and skill) are "prop ailerons". I thought about replacing traditional ailerons with 2 fans, one per a wing. They could be placed at the center of the wing. I think that strong engines could not only provide harrier-like start, but also could be used together with nose engine in hoovering. Imagine torque-rolling with speed of 2 rounds per second or even faster I think that my idea is crazy enough to place it here ;]

That would be sick! Could you imagine those little gws ducted fans on wingtips?? Talk about your roll rate! Great Idea, run with it! I would love to see it.

[KrisW]

Okay, three parameters need to be set.

Size
Powerplant
Affordability.

For size, I recommend 60", since it's large enough to carry decent weight, but small enough to never require more than one servo per surface, and you can do a LOT inside a 60" airframe.

Secondly. . Powerplant. Make it either/or. I'm thinking up to an OS .91 or Axi 4000 series motor, with an AUW of less than 4 lbs.

Third, let's limit the total cost to $600.00 RTF, including powerplant, but not radio gear. That's inclusive of a high-end electric powerplant or decent glo setup.

I've been looking at some pretty "radical" ideas concerning variations of my "Frenzy" design.

Right now, the only logical next step (to me at least) up in "radicalism" is to include articulating wing/ailerons that pivot on the wing tube, as well as individually movable stabilators. Each wing and stab would have their own servo, and be balanced so that the entire surface/wing moves with minimal servo input. I envision up to 25 degrees of wing AOA change, either up or down, in addition to the aileron movement, with this sort of setup, as well as the already proven 60-70 degrees possible with flying stabilators.

Big plus for a VPP setup large enough for a plane like this, since you can keep constant "spinner rpm" then vary the pitch like a collective for instantaneous reactivity either forward or aft.

the big thing is keep it light.. light. . light. Design ideas for that:

CF rod fuselage, overlaid with Mylar (NO helium) or transparent covering. It would be ultra light, strong, and stiff. Sort of like building a fuselage using a .040" CF tinker toy kit.

"Forward area Rule" fuselage, similar to the Frenzy design, to get as much side area up front as possible.

Ditch the Fin, completely, and substitute a shrouded tail rotor that has both positive and negative pitch capability. The spinning FLAT bladed tail rotor would be an effective "fin" with zero pitch, and the shroud could be kept flat, with a slight fin area above and below the rotor, to help keep the plane heading true in forward flight.

Now, I'd base this loosely on the Frenzy, and add side-force generators to the wings (being incorporated into that design as well) as well split ailerons with independent outer halves.

One thing I'd like to add. . including additional items such as an enclosed tail rotor setup would really add to the aircrafts maneuverability, but also add to it's complexity and cost. the idea is to keep it affordable, and as simple as possible.

that's my input, I'm sure others will have additions and comments that will be better than mine.

[Nitrohuffer]

I stink at rules. Ask my parole officer. Kidding!

[Boulder]

I don't know about rules, Kris, but I just came up with an idea.

Leave it to Biff to lay this out there!!! Like I need something else to do!! The problem is, I can't let a challenge go by without taking a shot at it!!!!

Picture this, a flying wing, of sorts, elevons, 1 motor on each wing half, mid wing for CG with slot in the wing for the prop. Now the trick is to make them VPP and individually throttle controlled and linked to the elevons so in a right turn the right motor would slow up and the left would go faster. This should make for some interesting aerobatics

Probably screw itself right into the ground, but I'm thinkin' at least...

[KrisW]

Okay, no rules. . .guidelines?

Cause I can slam a BME110 on a 15 lbs 84" plane in a heartbeat. . . . .

[Biff]

Guys, I like what I'm reading! The only word I've seen so far that I must throw the red flag up to is RULES. There are no rules! We simply can't have rules and have this whole project work. The only rules we need to look at is gravity and it's gotta be safe. Other than that I say we stay outside the box.

At this juncture we're all about brainstorming. As we come up with viable sytems, then we look at cost. Here's where modelers shine! To buy widget X, it will cost Y number of dollars. That's when we see how we can make or adapt parts to the the same job. Ain't that one thing that makes modeling cool?

NO MORE TALK OF RULES!! Gravity and safety are given,, and I'd like to question gravity on this project! PLEASE don't think conventional on this. We need to go WAY beyond what's there now.


Guys,this part of the project is picking the low fruit. We've all had brainstorms and most were left as just that. IDEAS guys! No matter how far out they are SHARE THEM NOW!!

My thoughts with neutrally bouyant craft is it pretty much is in the air by it's very nature. If we start with a bouyant craft, we are only limited by imagination. Speed, flutter, flightloads, ,inertia, and a thousand other things get far easier. I'm not slavish to this just tossing it out. A lighter than air craft can do anything you'd like with super low power. Low power= light weight.

Think indoor on this phase of the project. That in itself lends itself to inexpensive!

Well,,,, what you got? Rules=limits I say no thank you to both!

[KrisW]

Okay Biff. . .Neutral bouyancy aircraft are limited, by speed, performance and weight, simply because they can't carry enough power to do very much except float there. the vehicle will have to be heavier than air, simply because to get performance, you need the implements to make it perform. .batteries, servos, engines/motors, and other implements, which all add weight. Unless we want a slo-motion floater, it kind of limits the idea by using neutral buoyancy designs.

the only other limit we are going to encounter (and it will be a limit) is radio programmability and piloting skill.

lets look into a 4-rotor design, two fore-aft, two side-side, slaved to the pitch/roll axis of the transmitter, with a shrouded tail rotor for yaw, and forward mounted VPP setup for forward/aft motion. Given just these thrusting sources, anything is possible in the realm of manuverability.

I'm imagining 6 VPP Outrunners for power. You'd need to figure out a "fore/aft" control stick for that direction of flight, but it's doable.

[JeeUm]

How about figuring out a way to mount control surfaces in front of a VPP Foam aircraft so you can hover tail down, or nose down?

[JeeUm]

A foamy version of the osprey?