Sigh looks like FG has another jackass on the forums...

Condescension is not needed...

Thanks! Thought the same way about you, but here's what I will do, I'll only chime in when someone deserves a retort.... Ok, thought I'd change that. You're correct about the condescension bit not being needed, I'll change my ways, well, I'll try anyway. Can I borrow a drill bit, I need to ease the pressure in my head. I am a lunatic, you know.

Originally Posted by astrohog

Sounds like Elkster has the right formula! DUDE! You could make a killing!

I wonder how many people are MAKING A LIVING at each of the more popular companies?

I wonder how much it costs to STORE these reallly BIG BOXES once they are Stateside?

I wonder how long it takes to develop a mutual working relationship with a factory located halfway across the world?

I wonder what percentage of factories will work with a new business only to begin selling the design out the back door to the highest bidder?

I wonder what all those workers do with their MONTH off for the Chinese New Year?

I wonder why it takes so long for a container to arrive from halfway around the world?

I wonder if the language barrier and time zone difference ever gets in the way of effectively communicating between the company and their factory?

I wonder if the factories ever experience material shortages that slow production?

I wonder if a given factory is producing kits for multiple customers, if company A ever has to wait for the factory to finish company B's order before they get theirs?

I wonder if the owners of the popular companies ever think twice about forking over $50,000.00 or more every time they place a new order (especially in an economy where many are struggling to keep their homes, let alone purchase new toy airplanes!)?

I wonder if the owners of these companies wish they COULD just order their planes over and over again EXACTLY THE SAME so they COULD be produced cheaper, instead of having to make the changes their customers are DEMANDING, and to keep up with the latest, greatest motor, etc.

If it were easy, EVERYBODY would be doing it!

With the price and quality of the planes we are getting these days, is it really that much of an inconvenience to wait a few weeks for our new toys to show up on our doorstep?

WOW! what IS this world coming to?

Regards,

Starpig

I'll ignore the sarcasm and DRAMA(see your avitar) and just say that even though they are hidden, you make some very valid points about supply problems. I think many people here are so used to drama and sarcasm that they can't get used to the idea of a valid question nor the idea of a simple discussion on a cold winters night. I never complained about supply. I never mentioned a single company. I just wanted to discuss supply. If that's too hard for some of you, then please, by all means, move along to something that better interests you.

Originally Posted by rick dazzler

Here are my 2 cents..
Perspective depends on which side you are on.. It is differnt on the vendor side on the speculations..

The RC aircraft industry is a VERY small "niche" industry..
Most of us guys are average Joe's working day and night to bring these products in..
When there is a popular item that becomes a hit in the community such as an airplane arf supply takes a bit sometimes.
Also being that most all of us are not millionaire's we simply cannot get one container after another in. And those containers ARE NOT cheap for a 1-3 person small biz.
The profit made on air frame's is very marginal at best. To keep them in stock all the time would require several hundred thousand dollars or more in some cases. Also giving GOOD customer support come with a financial costs as well but good relations is the only business model that stays in the industry for the long haul..
trust me there are not marketing loopholes that we make to take more money..
If I wanted to be rich i certantly would have picked another occupation..I really don't see this whole industry for wealth tycoons there is just simply not a large demand for rc airplanes to the whole world public.
Sometimes stock may not be always available but what you will find with most are a group of guys passionate about aviation who love their job..

Thank you for the unique perspective based on experience.

Originally Posted by Elkster

Maybe. I wouldn't know. I was just reading how this one customer couldn't find an airplane in stock at either of his 2 favorite mfg's and it got me wondering factors that affect supply. Or why the supply isn't more consistent? How do you go about selling out a container of rc airplanes before they hit the shore? Shouldn't you have trained, hired and paid twice as many Chinamen to makes twice as many planes if demand was twice as much? So that you could then sell twice the planes and make twice the profit twice as fast?

EF and 3DHS are your two favorite manufacturers..I'm going to assume.
Now how many other guys have these two as their top favorite places to buy a plane

Now factor in that planes can only be made soo fast and shipped from china, reach the US port, clear customs, hop a train, then be delivered and unloaded by the vendor.

EF and 3dhs, among MANY quality arf vendors aren't rich guys who have a private factory churning out ARF's and have a steady stream of kits on the water.

Its simply an issue of 10's of thousands of rc flyers, if not hundreds of thousands, who might, at this very minute, want to buy a 3dhs or ef plane. If they aren't in stock, then they backorder one or go to the next guy.

Regarding EF and 3dhs..they aren't the only name in town and you would really be best served by trying out one of the other awesome guys, like Pilot, AW, EG, TD, H9, etc

Its not an issue of supply. Its an issue of demand far outstripping the supply.

You are trying to compare ARF availability with say..how easy it is to go get an Iphone, or Ipad, etc.

Apple's first shipment of Iphone 5's was in the order of a million units or more.
They have contracted and paid for several very large factories to crank out these units around the clock literally. Foxconn is HUGE and they are getting labor any way they can in order to meet the order requirements.

3dhs and EF, among others, don't have the same kind of pull.
It takes far longer to put an arf in the box, than it does to make a dvd player or Xbox360..

I'm sure you get it, but are just being obstinate


btw Elkster...Astrohog is affiliated with another well known arf vendor and knows what he is talking about.

DRAMA? HAHA! Hardly.....just the hard truth, although it does seem that the majority these days can't handle the truth and would rather focus on whatever else it is that makes them "feel" better. (I think this really started to change when they quit keeping score in youth T-ball)

SARCASM? Yes, but all in good fun, right?

I find it a little passive-aggressive to post an "innocent" question on a forum that is seemingly cloaked as an accusation ( " Seems like some run short on purpose to create desire by having limited quantities"), and to then have a retort, refuting or opposing any answers or information that was subsequently provided.

I took the time to respond to your inquiry (yes, it was a bit sarcastic, but CERTAINLY NOT offensive or combative) with insightful and thoughtful input and then you tell me to move along because you didn't like my perspective, or couldn't handle a little good-natured sarcasm? ("I just wanted to discuss supply. If that's too hard for some of you, then please, by all means, move along to something that better interests you")

THAT makes it kind of hard to have a discussion, don't you think?

Regards,

Starpig

*me bitc#slaps astrohog*

lol

No, who the F is BlackBird?

Originally Posted by FugginLunatic

No, who the F is BlackBird?

Some dude with the worlds biggest chip on his shoulder who could read racism into a question about props, or anything for that matter.

As for the original question, most industries the retailer has very rarely paid for the product prior to it hitting the shelves and being sold, big grocery chains like Walmart have a couple of months to pay from receiving the product, it has already been sold and the funds banked before it has to be paid for. so once you have your premises, it can be stocked with no capital outlay, which means they can keep the supply chain fully stocked. It is the manufacturers who pays to fill the supply chain with product.

Most model suppliers need full payment before delivery, or in the ARF makers case before the product is even made, then a 30 day shipping delay once there is a container full. And as people have said, the margins are not massive, the rag trade works on an industry average of gross 500% markup at retail outlets, other than the odd loss leader, grocery stores about 100 to 400% depending on the item, I doubt the retail RC industry average is above 30%, and with some higher value products much much less.

I was in the retail and support industry for years and years, although not in the RC field. I am not in that any more. I definitely know about supply and demand from that perspective.

As a business man that truly cared about his customers I would always let them know exactly what I was dealing with as I felt that upfront honesty was worth more in the long run. I would get them somewhat involved in my business so they would know, "why some item is not in stock from a particular vendor."

I came up believing and still do that support and service was far more important that what I made on a retail sale. I still believe a good name is much more important that the few bucks I would make on an item. My reputation is more important than the money. Certainly not everyone thinks that way, yet for me that is more important.

As I observe things today, I don't recall so much deception and greed in my entire 58 years of life. When I go into the grocery store I am so disgusted with the way vendors will package items to deceive the customers it really saddens me. So many people just don't have any ethical compasses anymore when the dollar comes to play.

Vendors will roll up thin slices of meat and pack them in specially designed plastic containers separated by air space to appear as if there is a much larger amount of meat there and charge two to three times per pound of meat. Yes, it looks nice, but there is nothing there for the consumer.

Sorry, I got off track for a moment

I have been wanting another EF ARF for a while now, but the size and model that I desire never seems to be in stock. I like the 30cc size but I don't want to wait forever to get one, so EF probably won't be my next purchase unless something changes as far as stock items go.

Originally Posted by Luchnia

As I observe things today, I don't recall so much deception and greed in my entire 58 years of life. When I go into the grocery store I am so disgusted with the way vendors will package items to deceive the customers it really saddens me. So many people just don't have any ethical compasses anymore when the dollar comes to play.

Vendors will roll up thin slices of meat and pack them in specially designed plastic containers separated by air space to appear as if there is a much larger amount of meat there and charge two to three times per pound of meat. Yes, it looks nice, but there is nothing there for the consumer.

Sorry, I got off track for a moment

I was beginning to feel like I was the only one who notices these things! I want to know WHEN and HOW did it change that companies stopped giving the customer WHAT the customer wants and still be able to THRIVE?

I guess that was about the same time they stopped keeping score at youth T-ball games, and stopped giving Letter grades in school!

Monumental effort should be rewarded with monumental reward, no effort should be rewarded with....wellll....NOTHING!

Regards,

Starpig

Originally Posted by Cryhavoc38

EF and 3DHS are your two favorite manufacturers..I'm going to assume.
Now how many other guys have these two as their top favorite places to buy a plane

Now factor in that planes can only be made soo fast and shipped from china, reach the US port, clear customs, hop a train, then be delivered and unloaded by the vendor.

EF and 3dhs, among MANY quality arf vendors aren't rich guys who have a private factory churning out ARF's and have a steady stream of kits on the water.

Its simply an issue of 10's of thousands of rc flyers, if not hundreds of thousands, who might, at this very minute, want to buy a 3dhs or ef plane. If they aren't in stock, then they backorder one or go to the next guy.

Regarding EF and 3dhs..they aren't the only name in town and you would really be best served by trying out one of the other awesome guys, like Pilot, AW, EG, TD, H9, etc

Its not an issue of supply. Its an issue of demand far outstripping the supply.

You are trying to compare ARF availability with say..how easy it is to go get an Iphone, or Ipad, etc.

Apple's first shipment of Iphone 5's was in the order of a million units or more.
They have contracted and paid for several very large factories to crank out these units around the clock literally. Foxconn is HUGE and they are getting labor any way they can in order to meet the order requirements.

3dhs and EF, among others, don't have the same kind of pull.
It takes far longer to put an arf in the box, than it does to make a dvd player or Xbox360..

I'm sure you get it, but are just being obstinate


btw Elkster...Astrohog is affiliated with another well known arf vendor and knows what he is talking about.

Where to start? First you assumed wrong. 3DHS and EF are not my 2 favorites. I have flown many brands over the last 20 years. AND I'm not being obstinate. Just wanting to know what seperates the RC Airplane field from supplying their products consistently. That's all. I won't even think about going into specific brands because it brings on even more drama and then the discussion can't even take place.

I guess I understand what you're saying. For as many points that you bring up including "amount of pull" and "longer to put an arf in the box". IF, as you suggest, there are hundreds of thousands of flyers looking to buy a plane, then wouldn't the mfg still want to satisfy this demand or lose sales? I simply mean to say that producing one unit of X is the same as any other labor intensive Unit of X in a different industry. The same problems exist across most industries. I don't believe that an RC mfg can't fill demand because the unit is labor intensive as there are many labor intensive products out there that are more labor intensive than airplanes. If you had supply problems, then I'd be betting on price of the unit or price of related planes as the root problem. If the mfg had more profit margin, they could then implement production changes. Well that stinks, because IF we paid more per plane, then we could get more consistent supply but we'd have less money to buy more planes. That's a vicious circle for sure.

Originally Posted by Languid Virago

As for the original question, most industries the retailer has very rarely paid for the product prior to it hitting the shelves and being sold, big grocery chains like Walmart have a couple of months to pay from receiving the product, it has already been sold and the funds banked before it has to be paid for. so once you have your premises, it can be stocked with no capital outlay, which means they can keep the supply chain fully stocked. It is the manufacturers who pays to fill the supply chain with product.

Most model suppliers need full payment before delivery, or in the ARF makers case before the product is even made, then a 30 day shipping delay once there is a container full. And as people have said, the margins are not massive, the rag trade works on an industry average of gross 500% markup at retail outlets, other than the odd loss leader, grocery stores about 100 to 400% depending on the item, I doubt the retail RC industry average is above 30%, and with some higher value products much much less.

I hadn't thought about 30 days and 60 days NET. A lot of business run on this credit in the US. I don't have enough international experience to know what other industries do about this credit or lack thereof, problem. Interesting. I'll have to do some research to figure that one out. Good point!

Originally Posted by Luchnia

As I observe things today, I don't recall so much deception and greed in my entire 58 years of life. When I go into the grocery store I am so disgusted with the way vendors will package items to deceive the customers it really saddens me. So many people just don't have any ethical compasses anymore when the dollar comes to play.
.

I know this is off track too but I couldn't help but relate to your thoughts. How about the thickness of some cereal boxes? The last ones I saw at the store were so thin and tall they couldn't even stand up by themselves. Talk about deception.

Originally Posted by astrohog

, and stopped giving Letter grades in school!


Starpig

They don't give out letter grades anymore? wth?

Originally Posted by astrohog

I find it a little passive-aggressive to post an "innocent" question on a forum that is seemingly cloaked as an accusation ( " Seems like some run short on purpose to create desire by having limited quantities"),

Originally, I just meant to include something that might invoke thought about marketing tactics and forecasting as it relates to supply. Nothing aggressive about that. I changed my original post to reflect your point, however.