Originally Posted by Languid Virago

I just need to source a gear supplier. Any suggests would be welcome.

http://www.technobotsonline.com/
scroll down to the mechanical section on the side of the page

We haven't heard anything about the 70cc twin.. me thinks its on hold

with electric starter become dle-55 longer ?

Originally Posted by glonline

with electric starter become dle-55 longer ?

Yes, in my case approximately 8mm. We used DLE30 standoffs to compensate. They are 60mm as against 68mm for the DLE55 standoffs.

Originally Posted by drob

Hi Guys, me again with further developments. Up until yesterday, Saturday, the starter continued to work well. This morning, however, there was a disturbing rattling noise heard when the starter was engaged and a degree of difficulty in getting the DLE55 to actually start. This continued with the fifth start (third flight) getting progressively worse. After landing we removed the cowl to observe the starter in action, with the ignition turned off mind you. We saw what seemed to be erratic engagement of the sprag.

We then disassembled the sprag from the crank shaft, noting a smear of grease on the assembly either side of the sprag gear. When the covers were removed from the gear housing we saw that there was a distinct lack of lubricant within the ball race at the front and sprag clutch at the back. The attached photos were taken before and after cleaning the internals.

Our diagnosis is that the lubricant used in the gear is not suitable for the heat transference which must surely occur via the crankshaft when the engine is running. Investigation by GB has found a remarkable resemblance between the gear used here and that used on the Suzuki 250 motor cycle electric starter. In that situation we assume the gear would not be subject to the same degree of heat.

As further information, I estimate that the starter has been used for no more than around 50-60 times (lots of demos) and the aircraft has had no more than around 20 flights. Only 10 litres of fuel has so far been used. There is no evidence of over-heating of the engine.

There appears to have been some damage sustained as what appeared to be one very small fragment of bearing housing from the ball race side was found. I am reluctant to disassemble the actual gear and sprag clutch to find out..

So guys, I would prevail upon the collective wisdom of you all for suggestions as to what lubricant should be used. We have thought of using Lithium Grease.

Incidentally, in response to a previous post, no rattler, we do not have engineering degrees, one was a computer programmer and the other (with the lathe) a commercial printer.

You guy's have put out some very good info on this starter. I'm still waiting on electrical components. Not sure what it's called but I used a grease on boat trailer axle, high temp, water pruf, messy but stayed where you wanted it not sure it would work here with no seals, a drop of oil every once in a while may be enough. Doug

Originally Posted by Languid Virago

I just sold my electric starter on without using it, when I looked at it I realised I would replace or change 70% of it. I have a DA50 with a Secraft floating mount and it didn't fit well. So perhaps on an EME or DLE 55 it would fit and work better.

and yes, i think I will go with a one way bearing on the idler gear to avid the problems "drob" has had. It will increse the rotating mass and reducing mechanical efficiency slightly, but not enough to make a noticable difference I would have thought.

one way bearings are easy to find, I just need to source a gear supplier. Any suggests would be welcome.

also to the dealers? any dates on the 70 twin?

katie you may run into some problems with the speed of the idler gear with your proposed setup . after checking with boca bearing there is no one way bearing that can handle even close to the 60,000 rpm that would be needed . if you were to make it so the gear disengaged(retracted) after starting ,that would work ,this setup would also need a one way bearing so the idler gear could overrun when starting but the gear could then retract out of the way when running. the main gear would be no more than a flywheel at that point. Roger

Originally Posted by RAMJETT

katie you may run into some problems with the speed of the idler gear with your proposed setup . after checking with boca bearing there is no one way bearing that can handle even close to the 60,000 rpm that would be needed . if you were to make it so the gear disengaged(retracted) after starting ,that would work ,this setup would also need a one way bearing so the idler gear could overrun when starting but the gear could then retract out of the way when running. the main gear would be no more than a flywheel at that point. Roger

nice catch, had really hadn't thought of the bearing speed. I will be going down to the industrial bearing place sometime next week and see what bearings and gears are available. maybe a larger diameter bearing might work better, so it can attach it to a step in the prop hub and not the crank avoiding that whole potential woodruff key problem. As I said it all depends on what is available. I haven't a clue at this point.

My 3Ws have a second crank coming out the rear, makes life so much simpler to fit a starter.

I did a bit of investigation on the bearings as well. Unfortunately the RPM limits on the bearings are close to what the engine runs at already (max. 8400 or less), and that goes down as the size goes up. Finding specs on these things isn't easy. There are also different RPM limits for the inner and outer ring of the bearing, which is confusing but make sense when you think about whether the sprags are engaged or not. It doesn't appear, at least from what I have found, that there would be a one-way bearing that could handle the RPM at the intermediate gear. Oddly, I couldn't find any source for the 14x35x11 bearing used on this starter, whereas 15x35x11 is common. I went off the ratings for the 15x35x11. From what I have read, these bearing are generally used as bearings on low speed applications, like conveyor belts, where you don't want to allow the load to reverse. Picture hitting Stop on an inclined conveyor belt with boxes on it...

As it is, special lubricant is recommended for the speed they run at already, and there is also derating on RPM limits with load and heat. Load shouldn't be an issue, but heat may be. I noticed on the the bearing I have that there is a flat with a gap that grease/oil/whatever lube they use could easily come out of. I'm not sure why they use these seals instead of metal or a type of rubber.

Hmmm.

Originally Posted by rattler

You guy's have put out some very good info on this starter. I'm still waiting on electrical components. Not sure what it's called but I used a grease on boat trailer axle, high temp, water pruf, messy but stayed where you wanted it not sure it would work here with no seals, a drop of oil every once in a while may be enough. Doug

Thanks Doug. I am happy to share our total experience with others. I tried using a Lithium grease containing Molybdenum Disulphide but no change. Once the engine did eventually start it would thereafter restart at the first turn of the prop. Thinking that maybe the Moly was making it too slippery for the sprags to lock I then tried high temperature wheel bearing grease.

I would like to be able to say it worked. Truth is I think the sprag clutch was damaged when the initial slipping was noticed. In my case, the first start for a flying session usually involves the engine turning over for around 5-8 seconds while fuel is sucked through to the carburetor. This morning, knowing that the sprag would not hold up, the first start was done using GB's heavy duty hand held starter. The subsequent flight went well. For the next flight just one turn of the prop with the on-board starter was sufficient for the DLE55 to spring into life.

During that flight, half way through a very lazy reverse Cuban Eight the top wing of the Ultimate folded up followed by one half of the lower wing. You can guess the result. So not only do I need a new sprag clutch assembly but a whole new aircraft! It was a quite surreal experience to see three wing halves gently fluttering earthwards, reaching the ground well after the remainder if the plane. Just when every thing was going so well (almost).

As I said, up to this point the sprag could cope with one revolution of the prop but beyond that the gear spun happily away while the prop remained stationary. I am coming to the conclusion that the sprag clutch/bearing used is maybe just not suitable for the intended application. Or is it the factory lubrication used not withstanding the heat?

As a side issue, all of this has allowed me to inspect the Woodruff key situation and I can say that there is no evidence of any movement at all in that area. At least that worked!

I guess then that's all from me now on the subject although I will continue to follow the thread closely. Best of luck to those of you who will continue with the starter. Despite the trouble I have had, I still think it is worth it. If Aeroworks does the right thing and comes to the party with a new kit as I think they should, I am prepared to start over again. I would still be out of pocket for a new engine, starter and other bits of gear not salvageable from the wreck.

To finish off, as has been covered before, the manual for the DLE55 and probably also the EME55 states that the timing has been set at 44 degrees BTDC. GB now believes how they arrived at this number.

When using the RCexl Ignition Hall Sensor Test Kit (SDSHobby item #GE3003), the light is illuminated when the magnet first comes under the Hall Sensor and goes out as it leaves it. It is at that point, when the light goes out, that the spark is triggered. Using an appropriately positioned timing wheel you will see that when the light goes out at 28 degrees, it comes on at 44 degrees. This does not explain, however, why the actual timing on our engines was incorrectly set at 36 degrees BTDC and not at 28 as it should be according to RCexl.
Cheers
David

that's tragic Dave hope you get back in the air soon .unbelievable the wings coming off in the air like that . would be nice if they could do something for you . I have a 100cc goldwing yak 55 where the wing tube shattered the ribs and leading edge sheeting in the wing doing a low speed snap roll . lucky to get it down . on inspect I found there was nothing joining the main spars at the end of the wing tube inside the wing , the only thing that supported the wing tube was 3 - 1/16" ply ribs ,they just split in half and then the wing tube tried to force the main spars apart. like I said it was lucky that mine landed , I sent a message to goldwing but I am not holding my breath. were you able to determine what went wrong with yours or why.Roger

Originally Posted by RAMJETT

that's tragic Dave hope you get back in the air soon .unbelievable the wings coming off in the air like that . would be nice if they could do something for you ......... were you able to determine what went wrong with yours or why.Roger

We have our theories but I think it best to let AeroWorks respond first. Suffice to say that if I do get another kit I will be doing some strategic strengthening to the wing assembly before committing it to the air. It really was a joy to fly. The starter was the icing on the cake.

Originally Posted by drob

Thanks Doug. I am happy to share our total experience with others. I tried using a Lithium grease containing Molybdenum Disulphide but no change. Once the engine did eventually start it would thereafter restart at the first turn of the prop. Thinking that maybe the Moly was making it too slippery for the sprags to lock I then tried high temperature wheel bearing grease.

I would like to be able to say it worked. Truth is I think the sprag clutch was damaged when the initial slipping was noticed. In my case, the first start for a flying session usually involves the engine turning over for around 5-8 seconds while fuel is sucked through to the carburetor. This morning, knowing that the sprag would not hold up, the first start was done using GB's heavy duty hand held starter. The subsequent flight went well. For the next flight just one turn of the prop with the on-board starter was sufficient for the DLE55 to spring into life.

During that flight, half way through a very lazy reverse Cuban Eight the top wing of the Ultimate folded up followed by one half of the lower wing. You can guess the result. So not only do I need a new sprag clutch assembly but a whole new aircraft! It was a quite surreal experience to see three wing halves gently fluttering earthwards, reaching the ground well after the remainder if the plane. Just when every thing was going so well (almost).

As I said, up to this point the sprag could cope with one revolution of the prop but beyond that the gear spun happily away while the prop remained stationary. I am coming to the conclusion that the sprag clutch/bearing used is maybe just not suitable for the intended application. Or is it the factory lubrication used not withstanding the heat?

As a side issue, all of this has allowed me to inspect the Woodruff key situation and I can say that there is no evidence of any movement at all in that area. At least that worked!

I guess then that's all from me now on the subject although I will continue to follow the thread closely. Best of luck to those of you who will continue with the starter. Despite the trouble I have had, I still think it is worth it. If Aeroworks does the right thing and comes to the party with a new kit as I think they should, I am prepared to start over again. I would still be out of pocket for a new engine, starter and other bits of gear not salvageable from the wreck.

To finish off, as has been covered before, the manual for the DLE55 and probably also the EME55 states that the timing has been set at 44 degrees BTDC. GB now believes how they arrived at this number.

When using the RCexl Ignition Hall Sensor Test Kit (SDSHobby item #GE3003), the light is illuminated when the magnet first comes under the Hall Sensor and goes out as it leaves it. It is at that point, when the light goes out, that the spark is triggered. Using an appropriately positioned timing wheel you will see that when the light goes out at 28 degrees, it comes on at 44 degrees. This does not explain, however, why the actual timing on our engines was incorrectly set at 36 degrees BTDC and not at 28 as it should be according to RCexl.
Cheers
David

heck man, sorry to hear your tragedy, I haven't maidened just yet but close when have time and weather, the eme sounds very good pulling a 23x8 xoar @ 6800 not bad for a new engine, my esc burned up after about 3 revolutions, I'm going to try the moment switch and servo trick, it starts very well with the moment switch

Originally Posted by rattler

heck man, sorry to hear your tragedy, I haven't maidened just yet but close when have time and weather, the eme sounds very good pulling a 23x8 xoar @ 6800 not bad for a new engine, my esc burned up after about 3 revolutions, I'm going to try the moment switch and servo trick, it starts very well with the moment switch

Thanks Doug. The best I got with the DLE55 and the same prop was around 6200. The momentary switch/choke setup in my sadly departed continued to work well. I would suggest, however that you make the battery connection reasonably accessible in case there is the need to close the choke without activating the starter. As in initially priming the motor for instance. David.

I have the EME onboard starter and when starting the engine it back fired and broke that tab off on the woodruff key. Anyone have any ideas where I can get these keys. See Picture below

yeah eme direct or make one.