Originally Posted by SunDevilPilot

Yes,

I put my number in everything I fly.

Like you, I disagree with the 400 foot "Rule" which is listed during the registration portion. That "Rule" is later defined as a "Guideline" on the actual card. I'm not really sure what the FAA means, and I think they are being intentionally vague. The 400 foot part was a major point of contention when I registered. Almost didn't go thru with it. However... I'm not going to linger on and see what the AMA resolves. If they prevail and it gets clarified / modified.. great. They get ignored I am already registered... no big deal.

Regardless of you registering.. I assure you.. The FAA assumes this applies to you too.

Here is a copy of what the actual card looks like. I removed my name and registration number.

My thoughts on "Guideline" is:
Recommended practice that allows some discretion or leeway in its interpretation, implementation, or use.

Fly out in a safe area and away from full scale planes... it remains a guideline. Fly at the end of a full scale runway it becomes a rule.

The card also mentions not flying "Near other aircraft". Since models are now defined as "Aircraft" by the FAA we would not be allowed to fly with more than one model up in the air.

SunDevilPilot

Hey, one of the guidelines will keep you from flying at Fun Fly events. The rule states do not fly close to other aircraft.

Originally Posted by Luchnia

I think folks just do not understand that when they clicked to agree with FAA guidelines that is considered as binding as if you signed a paper. That gives local authorities a "position" (although a weak one) to make things tough for you if they desire.

How can that be so easily missed? I read it and without hesitation knew I would not acknowledge the guidelines.

Come the end of the registration grace period... You won't be flying at all.

To be quite hones, I don't think the FAA is out to destroy all us modelers with our toy airplanes. I think they are trying to get a handle on the massive increase in radio controlled models, mainly quads (Completely capable of flight to whomever purchases one), before there is complete chaos. I can't expect our government to do absolutely nothing. We all know there are people out there that have little to no common sense.

Originally Posted by SunDevilPilot

Like you, I disagree with the 400 foot "Rule" which is listed during the registration portion.

Posted this in another thread. I keep trying to make this point as clearly as possible, but somehow it keeps getting lost. It does not matter what the FAA calls, you have accepted it as a limit on your operation.

You need to understand the concept of a de facto rule and how this would be applied. I have tried to spell this out several times, but apparently the message is not getting through.

You are correct, there is no actual regulation limiting flight to 400 feet. However, when you register you agree to fly below 400 feet. You have now accepted and agreed to a condition to receive your registration. Now, you violate that condition, the FAA now can prosecute you in the event of an incident for Reckless/Careless operation under Part 91.13.

It is similar to when there used to be no speed limits in some states. You did not ever get a speeding ticket, but if something bad happened due to what they deemed excessive speed you could get a ticket for unsafe operation. You could get a ticket for going 30 mph if the cop decided that speed was was unsafe for the conditions.

I'm sorry, I cannot say this any more clearly. Once you accept that condition required by the FAA to complete the registration you have in fact imposed a limit on yourself and accepted their de facto rule. Calling it a "guideline" at this point is meaningless. It is a condition of operation that you have accepted to abide by.

Just got back from doing some flying.... No number... No fuss.... No nuthin'
Just like the last 50 years. Didn't see anyone. Didn't see a drone. Didn't see an FAA person. Did't even run into my AMA rep.... Didn't give registering or not registering single thought......
I just flew. I was well under 400 feet. Merry Christmas!
WT

The AMA failure here was not distingusing us from drones years ago. They saw an opportunity to increase membership and stopped using their brains. This has been said and repeated many times on many threads.

They failed to predict the power play the FAA would pull. This lack of forthought is/was pathetic. Every single government agency's number one principle is to grow. That means a bigger piece of the budget pie and a stronger seat at the head table.

Like all other sections of the government, they think they can write law instead of following congress.

We need to step up and contact our local, state and federal reps. We the people elect these folks to do what is in our best interest. If they fail to do their jobs, we elect replacements.

Sorry for the civics lesson / rant, but we need to focus our collective energy in the right way if we are going to change what the FAA has done to us.

Tony

Originally Posted by Judge

Posted this in another thread. I keep trying to make this point as clearly as possible, but somehow it keeps getting lost. It does not matter what the FAA calls, you have accepted it as a limit on your operation.

You need to understand the concept of a de facto rule and how this would be applied. I have tried to spell this out several times, but apparently the message is not getting through.

You are correct, there is no actual regulation limiting flight to 400 feet. However, when you register you agree to fly below 400 feet. You have now accepted and agreed to a condition to receive your registration. Now, you violate that condition, the FAA now can prosecute you in the event of an incident for Reckless/Careless operation under Part 91.13.

It is similar to when there used to be no speed limits in some states. You did not ever get a speeding ticket, but if something bad happened due to what they deemed excessive speed you could get a ticket for unsafe operation. You could get a ticket for going 30 mph if the cop decided that speed was was unsafe for the conditions.

I'm sorry, I cannot say this any more clearly. Once you accept that condition required by the FAA to complete the registration you have in fact imposed a limit on yourself and accepted their de facto rule. Calling it a "guideline" at this point is meaningless. It is a condition of operation that you have accepted to abide by.

I understand what you are saying. And you are also being held to the same agreement when you are required to register or when you purchase your next plane.

Heck, fly over 400 feet and endanger a full scale and you too will likely be in the same boat as I would.

No matter what. The AMA is making a mistake telling its members to not register. It doesn't serve any purpose, provide any motivation to the FAA to agree, and make its members look like they have no interest in being part of the solution.

One other issue. The site makes no distinction between me and the guy who just got his first model for Christmas. The protections in place for us modelers applies to those in a CBO (AMA). They would have needed two checkboxes, fly under 400 feet or I'm part of the AMA (by law exempt). .

Our discussion is relevant.... A court will likely visit both our points of view upon the first issuance of a fine to an AMA member.

Good luck with not registering

When did the 3 mile rule get changed to 5 miles from an airport? If this is correct, I think quite a few AMA fields will be forced to relocate.

Originally Posted by SunDevilPilot

No matter what. The AMA is making a mistake telling its members to not register. It doesn't serve any purpose, provide any motivation to the FAA to agree, and make its members look like they have no interest in being part of the solution.

I doubt the FAA cares about the AMA members no interest in being part of the solution. In the FAA's mind they have just issued the "solution". In order for a new solution, someone will have to successfully sue and win. Forcing the FAA to come up with a new solution. Until that happens you either play by their rules or suffer the consequences.

Sad but true.

Originally Posted by SunDevilPilot

No matter what. The AMA is making a mistake telling its members to not register.

Of course, that is NOT what they are saying. What they ARE saying is to hold off until the 19th of February to allow them time to see what, if any, headway they can make with the FAA. So what's the rush? Save $5?? I'll risk it and give the AMA the time they need. After the 19th if nothing has changed if I want to fly something over 250gr I'll have to make decisions then. But if this sticks then there will be thousands of large sailplanes for sale across the US, plus a lot of IMAC and pattern planes. You may not do any of those and therefore do not care, and that's fine. But there are a whole lot of people who will basically be unable to enjoy the hobby as they have done safely and without incident due to an illegal rule making backdoor on the part of the FAA, and it astonsihes me that you seem OK with that.

On my 35% planes 400 feet is nothing.

I once flew at a grass airport where full scale flew also along with ultralights. The full scalers knew us well and they would do a semi-far fly by to let us know they wanted to land. Once a guy in a kitfox asked me how high I though I was and I said "3 or 4 hundred feet" and he said "when you did that hammerhead you were even with me at 900 feet"..... It is just hard to tell how high you are much less agree to it.

What are the advantages of renewing your AMA or the FAA number if you can't fly until spring.

Originally Posted by mikeh

What are the advantages of renewing your AMA or the FAA number if you can't fly until spring.

Some clubs have a membership limit,(example: existing members get first chance at renewal till Jan 30... after that it goes to the waiting list).......

Originally Posted by flyin4fun

Some clubs have a membership limit,(example: existing members get first chance at renewal till Jan 30... after that it goes to the waiting list).......

And some of us fly year round and /or early renewal is $20 less than late renewal

I'm not too worried. I flew above the AMA "limit" for a long time since I flew on private property. Also having a grand total of 6 law enforcement in the county spread between state, local and 2 federal (One US Forest Service enforcement, and one USFWS Enforcement) I think I'll take my chances to fly without registering.

When I lived in a little more urban area once had a plane plane land on our flying field while it was in use by 30+ flyers on a weekend becuase it looked "cool" from the air. Yeah so much for licenscing and registration.

A visual estimation of speed is almost never used to hold up a speeding ticket any longer unless there's an abundance of other evidence. I'm guessing at some point they have will have to get the altitude with a laser rangefinder at some point if they actually put teeth into the fines and expect them to stick. In other words, I'm going to guess a lot of you don't drive the speed limit or less every day after you got your license either.

Originally Posted by bob101

I'm not too worried. I flew above the AMA "limit"

That's confusing, there is not now, nor has there ever been, an "AMA Limit". The one and only thing the AMA and the Safety Code say about altitude is if you plan to fly over 400 feet within 3 miles of an airport you need to contact and inform the airport.