Originally Posted by 66stang

JR has just cemented my switch to Futaba., I have flown nothing but JR since I started flying, but this is crap! I'll keep my JR 9303 for BND Fly planes and the current stuff, but all big birds and new planes will be Futaba...

66Stang, I'm right there with you. I've been with JR since I started in R/C racing 1/10th Scale trucks. Been flying with their gear over the past ten years after that. I just came back from Toledo and spent a lot of time in the Futaba booth. The 12Z is looking better all the time and if I have to replace my receivers anyway...

Originally Posted by 1bwana1

Thanks for the update Matt. As I feared those of us that invested in the HH JR DSMX products are hosed going forward. I am not a happy camper...

Originally Posted by 1bwana1

Matt,
It's pretty simple. The 11X is supposed to be upgradable through the SD card so that current owners can take advantage of software updates and improvements. HH made a big deal of this in their promotions of this radio. In contrast, JR is doing this by upgrading the current users of the 11X Zero (the non HH version of the 11X) to the new XG11 software. There is no such update for those of us who invested in the HH DSMX 11X. There are some very nice new features in the new JR software, but we are being left behind.

Spektrum is adding features to DSMX to include telemetry and other features. They are not going to offer JR Radio systems with any of these kinds of upgrades. Once again, we are left behind.

While the hybred HH JR/DSMX radios work well as originally purchased, it appears that those of us who invested in them have no good path forward.

If we want to keep current with new DSMX features our choice is limited to keeping our recievers, abandoning our JR transmitter programming, and buy a new Spektrum transmitter. As nice as some of the new Spektrum TXs are, the programming is way behind what the 11X has. This is not a good path in my opinion.

If we want to keep current with the new JR features our choice becomes, buy a new JR XG11, and all new JR DMSS recievers as well. This is a very expensive proposition, about equal to moving to another brand system all together.

Shortly after I invested in my 11X, HH came out with DSMX. I was outside the free upgrade window, but still I had a path forward to keep current. Fair enough for me.

Now no matter which way you look at it, HH JR/DSMX customers are now owners of an abandoned technology, JR Radios with DSMX RF protocols. We are stuck with a depreciated set of features when compared to pure versions of either.

Yes, I consider that hosed. What would you all call it?

Originally Posted by 1bwana1

Reza,
The upgrade to DSMX was also a hardware upgrade. It could be done in a full supported system. Don't forget that the telementry is a chip with integrated antenna, and could be done as an upgrade. I recognize that this would take an effort from HH that is not economically feasable to do on a discontinued line, so will never happen.

The way it stands now, there is no way forward. The HH JR DSMX protocol is about as dead as 72 mhz stuff. I expect resale values to be close to the same.

Hosed....

Originally Posted by 1bwana1

As I said, that was the kind of great support we expected from HH and JR. Its one of the reasons they had our loyalty. However, for those of us who invested in HH JR DSMX that is now gone.

Matt has already said there will be no further development of the JR DSMX systems. I have to agree it would not make financial sense for them to do it. It just means that for all who invested in this combination, we are hosed going forward.

Originally Posted by 1bwana1

Yep, but it didn't have to go this way...

I agree with everything you've said. I feel like a fool for jumping into DSMX with both feet. I bought a new 11X (DSMX) late last year thinking it was a great long-term investment. Now I own a hybrid that nobody wants to claim. It still works fine, but possibly no updates to my future-proof system and it will only work with their competitors receivers going forward. It just seems odd. After what JR has done over the past couple years, I've just grown tired of it.

I disagree slightly Kevin. It's a time/support investment. The major complaint here is the appearance that JR is no longer going to be actively developing DSMX. Now Matt has said they WILL support it, but nobody really knows what that means. I think people are concerned they spent a lot of money on what is now a dead (developmentally) product.

None of what's happened has changed/worsened the usability or functionality of the existing product.

Just think... you could be a JR sponsored pilot, feeling a little personal pressure to jump on the DMSS bandwagon so you buy the new 11 channel radio....

Then you're warming up the motor before your turn at Tucson... thinking about how you have to really wring the plane out to beat the Futaba guy that just landed.. knowing that your receiver is powered only by a battery connection (through a Y-cable) that's only capable of passing 3 amps through it... and praying that you don't have a moment like QQ did a few years ago, all because of the power system!

Now, things aren't so bad, are they?

Doug,

The time was mostly spent for pleasure. This is a hobby for most of the people reading this, not a job.

Did JR ever develop DSMX or simply acquire it from Spektrum? If the latter, they would have to "start" development of DSMX in order to continue that program and being that it is protected, not really possible. Maybe JR doesn't want to share the technical details of DMSS with others, including Spektrum as a means of protecting their investment in that system. If so, it will be hard for another group to create a conversion from existing systems to DMSS. Again, JR makes that choice and they were bound to have weighed the pros and cons of making this change in product offering.

Doug you are correct, DSMX will be supported with the current products for some time. I do not know the time frame though... meaining they will continue to sell recievers and current DSMX products... but I don't know for how long. Regarding the service center support, of course they will repair any current JR DSMX products (nothing changed).

Originally Posted by reyn3545

Just think... you could be a JR sponsored pilot, feeling a little personal pressure to jump on the DMSS bandwagon so you buy the new 11 channel radio....

Then you're warming up the motor before your turn at Tucson... thinking about how you have to really wring the plane out to beat the Futaba guy that just landed.. knowing that your receiver is powered only by a battery connection (through a Y-cable) that's only capable of passing 3 amps through it... and praying that you don't have a moment like QQ did a few years ago, all because of the power system!

Now, things aren't so bad, are they?

I will be staying with the current DSMX PowerSafe systems... bulletproof for me!

Originally Posted by kjkimball

I have a 2003 ford expedition and my wife just got a new 2012 version of the same vehicle. Why didn't ford tell me there were going to be major changes to the car and that it would have features not available to my old one? Should ford be required to update the 2003 to the 2012 status for free? No. Should they be required to tell me and any competitors of new things to come? No.


Secondly, the term "investment" is being tossed around in this thread a good bit. Investment by definition for most folks is to contribute funds with the expectation of financial gain. I can see that Horizon made an 'investment' in the Spektrum line of products and in JR by supplying them with the DSM/DSM2/DSMX technology. However, a consumer who purchases a product did not invest into that product development with expecation of ROI. Consumers make purchases and purchases are not investments unless you expect to make gains on that investment. Did any of you buy a JR DSM2/DSMX system with the expectation of selling it at the future date for more than the purchase price? Doubt it.


Clearly, 2.4 is here to stay for a good while. Like many tech products, there is no fixed standard and each company can decide how to design and market product. In this case, Horizon markets their products as they see fit. Certainly, some of the products they sell are not proprietary and in as much are subject to the sales and marketing requirements of each manufacturer. If JR didn't what Horizon to tell the world about JR DMSS, they had to respect that. Be pissed at JR not Horizon. Seems JR gets to decide what updates or changes are offered for their products just as I do for the things I make and sell. If JR wanted to offer an update to convert 11X DSM2/DSMX to XG11 status, they would do it. If not, JR's choice. I'd bet a hotdog at Joe Nall that the Horizon folks tried their best to convince JR to stay with the DSMX system even if only to avoid the lost or "hosed" feelings by some JR customers.

For me, the choice is clear. Stay with what I have now which is JR/DSMX until Spektrum offers a radio I like more. Might get the DX18 or maybe wait to see what is next. I like the products and people of Horizon. I like the way they conduct business and service customers.

The argument with the 2003 and the 2012 Ford does not apply----we are talking about tx's that were purchased at retail (full pop----not discounted) a few weeks ago-----not 9 years ago.

Originally Posted by MattyMatt

I will be staying with the current DSMX PowerSafe systems... bulletproof for me!

Bring a float plane to the Nall---I will be at the lake with my JR11X-DSMX gear----see you at
the lake!!!!!!!!

It always sucks to see technology change shorty after a big purchase.

Yeap, I own an 11x as well.

Just a though... I wonder if the programing updates for the 11x zero are compatible with the HH sold 11x?

What follows is just an opinion, not represented as fact.

HH has probably found itself between a rock and a hard place with JR's release of the XG series and DMSS.

Originally, when the Spektrum system was developed, JR saw a great opportunity to leapfrog ahead of its major competitors by simply licensing DSM2 from Spektrum and adding it to the JR range of products. This was an arrangement which suited HH/Spektrum and JR at the time.

However, I suspect that JR resented having to pay a licensing fee for the use of Spektrum technology and probably also felt that it may have lessened the market's perception of JR as an innovator and market leader (what innovator would be reliant on a competitor's technology?).

With this in mind, plus the fact that DSM2 wasn't legal in its home market of Japan and a growing awareness that DSM2 was well past its best-by date and could actually be damaging the JR brand in the longer term, JR had no option but to develop their own 2.4GHz RF system -- DMSS.

Now Horizon are on the back foot -- facing demands from their domestic market who are increasingly griping that the "top line" JR gear doesn't offer any form of telemetry and that US consumers are missing out on the XG series of radios.

At this point, one of two things could have happened...

1. JR and Horizon part ways and a new JR distributor is appointed.

2. HH reluctantly agree to honor their distributor agreement by selling the XG series with DMSS.

Now from HH's point of view, there's an old saying that probably has much relevance "keep your friends close and your enemies closer".

By retaining the JR distributorship, HH maintains control over a leading brand that they're now going head-to-head with as they roll out the DX18. What a coup!

Wouldn't Ford love to be the distributor for Chevy?

Now I'm not saying that HH isn't committed to the JR product - however, I find it hard to reconcile the conflict of interest that now arises with the release of the DX18.

When the flagship Spektrum radio was the DX7 or the DX8 then there was a pretty clear line of separation between the "consumer-grade" product that was Spektrum and the "top-end" product that was JR. Now, with the arrival of the XG8 and the DX18, that line has become very blurred.

What would HH rather push -- their own Spektrum-branded product with the resultant generous margins -- or the JR product which I suspect comes with much lower margins.

The beancounters and managers will clearly have an opinion on that.

Now of course, as many have already pointed out, the arrival of DMSS doesn't mean that DSMX-equipped JR gear is rendered useless -- absolutely not.

DMSS and DSMX are both good, solid systems and the only real distinction seems to be that the DSMX-equipped JR radios lack telemetry -- although they gain the "powersafe" receivers.

To be totally honest, I think telemetry is being grossly over-rated.

Yes, it's a nice feeling to know that you'll be alerted if there's an issue with your onboard battery such that the voltage drops to an alarm level -- but we've been flying for decades without such luxuries and good practice and maintenance plus the use of good-quality gear means that in-air battery failures are extremely rare.

Let's face it, nobody with half a brain has time to read the LCD screen on their transmitter while they're flying an RC model so telemetry (for most) is a novelty and a "bullet-point" feature on the manufacturer's brochure.

Being able to log telemetry data can be far more useful -- but there are already plenty of 3rd-party systems around that offer such logging and do so in a far more flexible and powerful way than most RC systems can offer.

The bottom line is that HH is looking after HH. JR is looking after JR and consumers are still free to make whatever choices they think are best for them.

The sun is shining, go fly.

Originally Posted by reyn3545

Just think... you could be a JR sponsored pilot, feeling a little personal pressure to jump on the DMSS bandwagon so you buy the new 11 channel radio....

Then you're warming up the motor before your turn at Tucson... thinking about how you have to really wring the plane out to beat the Futaba guy that just landed.. knowing that your receiver is powered only by a battery connection (through a Y-cable) that's only capable of passing 3 amps through it... and praying that you don't have a moment like QQ did a few years ago, all because of the power system!

Now, things aren't so bad, are they?

You really should be careful spreading around misinformation. Nowhere in the XG-11 manual (I've read it front to back) does it say you can ONLY power the receiver through the single port. Unless there has been some massive change in the way the receivers are designed, any port can be used as a power port.

Originally Posted by XJet

To be totally honest, I think telemetry is being grossly over-rated.

I disagree. Telemetry giving you alarms based upon power battery voltage and capacity usage can be the difference between puffing (destroying) and keeping a battery. When a battery pack for a contemporary F3A airplane costs $300 or more, this simple feature can save you a LOT of money.

Then there is the 'kitchen sink' mentality, that any top-end radio should have all the capability available on the market today BECAUSE it's a top-end radio. I happen to agree. If it's your flagship radio, it should have ALL functionality available in today's radio market.

Originally Posted by reyn3545

Just think... you could be a JR sponsored pilot, feeling a little personal pressure to jump on the DMSS bandwagon so you buy the new 11 channel radio....

Then you're warming up the motor before your turn at Tucson... thinking about how you have to really wring the plane out to beat the Futaba guy that just landed.. knowing that your receiver is powered only by a battery connection (through a Y-cable) that's only capable of passing 3 amps through it... and praying that you don't have a moment like QQ did a few years ago, all because of the power system!

Now, things aren't so bad, are they?

So everybody is using power safe RX's on there planes? Futaba doesn't have power safe RX's and I don't see their planes falling out of the sky.

Originally Posted by reyn3545

Just think... you could be a JR sponsored pilot,

I thought that there was no such thing in the US any longer. It is no longer Team JR but instead Team Horizon, nice blue shirts and all. This is why I have wondered if Horizon will be asking their pilots to start migrating to Spektrum, their own brand. Maybe not, but it makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by Bikman

久山 昇二 : (Shouji Kuyama : President of JR) "Thank you for the comments and continuous support to JR, Mr. Reilling. We will try our best to sell XG8 and other XG series with DMSS 2.4GHz system in the USA to make JR supports happy !!

source: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=125