Originally Posted by Denny Fish

Two blade, three blade, pipes, cans, whatever soon the only clubs will be so far out of town who will want to be in IMAC let alone fly at all.

Bingo!!... That is exactly what is happening for those living in the densely populated areas. I have to drive 1.5 hours one way to practice the sequence with my 40% airplanes, because none of the dozen or so local clubs have a field that does not have some kind of noise and or footprint issues, and will not support IMAC flying with these giant scale gassers. Many of these clubs have sound limits at or below 96 DB at 3 meters. [Not 25 feet as in IMAC] The last few years I did compete, [Unlimited] was without any practice. My only sequence flying was at the contests. I got my butt kicked time and time again... Not much fun and very frustrating...

Three hours of driving for the round trip, and gas at $5 a gallon during the summer months for a couple of flights ... No thanks. We have lost quite a # of IMAC pilots because of this, and will continue to do so unless changes are made.

I just sold my last IMAC airplane, and while I am very sad to see it go, I have no regrets in doing so.

I am hopeful that some changes can come into effect that will allow me to return to IMAC, but I'm certainly not holding my breath.

I bet you have another IMAC plane hiding somewhere you little trickster.

Originally Posted by Rebel

I bet you have another IMAC plane hiding somewhere you little trickster.

Nope.... But would not hesitate to build another one if and when the time comes.

seams to me , that one's " OPINION " has a lot to do with the sound score ," what sounds good " , rather than using a means to " properly " measure that sound that an aircraft makes .. A proper decimiel reading of the aircraft should solve this ..
my $.02

Originally Posted by 300sflyer

I have to drive 1.5 hours one way to practice the sequence with my 40% airplanes, because none of the dozen or so local clubs have a field that does not have some kind of noise and or footprint issues, and will not support IMAC flying with these giant scale gassers. Many of these clubs have sound limits at or below 96 DB at 3 meters. [Not 25 feet as in IMAC]

Again, hesitating to post to you but since you are proving my point I feel the need to say something.

Your 126" Carden and DA-200 was one of the quietest one around with your exhaust set up.
Even with the measures you took to make your sound footprint as low as possible you still were not able to fly at some local clubs.
The bottom line is there are fields that simply wont support these large planes. These venues should not be used to hold contests.

That does suck that you live in an area where you cant fly the type of planes you'd like to fly even with concentrated efforts to keep the plane as quiet as you can.
With that being said, not every one who flies IMAC has those problems at their local clubs or local contests.

Originally Posted by umpire

we can not totally remove some sort of sound policing as this would lead to total backwards movement.

Personal opinion. Theres absolutely no proof of that.
For me, I dont want to fly a loud plane. Whether or not I am being judged on sound has nothing to do with the sound footrpint I want to leave during a flight.

As stated; Remove the sound issue except at fields that have problems.... If this was to happen then the pilots that had worked to quieten their airplanes would be penalized.

How??

Also venues that had a sound waver for quiet airplanes would no longer host contest because pilots would not participate.

Again, personal opinion. Zero proof of that.

Up the K factor and score from 0-10 as proposed; Well that would just complicate the same we have now.

If the Sound Score is going to stay why would this complicate things? 0-5-10 just means everyone gets a 5. Opening it up to 0-10 gives the judge a lot more room to really give a score based on what is heard during a flight.

Originally Posted by 300sflyer

Bingo!!... That is exactly what is happening for those living in the densely populated areas. I have to drive 1.5 hours one way to practice the sequence with my 40% airplanes, because none of the dozen or so local clubs have a field that does not have some kind of noise and or footprint issues, and will not support IMAC flying with these giant scale gassers. Many of these clubs have sound limits at or below 96 DB at 3 meters. [Not 25 feet as in IMAC] The last few years I did compete, [Unlimited] was without any practice. My only sequence flying was at the contests. I got my butt kicked time and time again... Not much fun and very frustrating...

Three hours of driving for the round trip, and gas at $5 a gallon during the summer months for a couple of flights ... No thanks. We have lost quite a # of IMAC pilots because of this, and will continue to do so unless changes are made.

I just sold my last IMAC airplane, and while I am very sad to see it go, I have no regrets in doing so.

I am hopeful that some changes can come into effect that will allow me to return to IMAC, but I'm certainly not holding my breath.

Mike,

Thank you for making your post because you just gave support to some interesting points.

• Since you live in a “densely populated area” your local clubs have sound issues for ALL planes flying ALL year long. It is not just the once per year IMAC contest that causes these clubs problems or to lose their sites. Clearly these fields should either NOT host a contest or use a CD’s authority to announce special contest rules consistent with that club’s requirements.
• The fact that you claim you’re losing IMAC pilots because you have to drive long distances using $5 gas has nothing to do with IMAC sound rules. It has everything to do with where you live and the local club rules. Even if all IMAC planes were electric your local clubs would probably still have over fly issues because they are in densely populated areas.
• You say you sold your last IMAC plane and have no regrets doing so. Then why are you consistently trying to change IMAC for all pilots even if they fly at fields OK with the current rule structure? If you’re out of IMAC then be out. If you’re in IMAC then remember that the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" (Star Trek quote).

I too live in a densely populated area and drive over 1 hour each way to practice IMAC. However, that’s a life choice I made regarding where I live and the hobby I chose. Mandating equipment rules won’t change those facts. Flying large planes in the middle of dense populations makes no sense even if they are whisper quiet. That’s why I drive to a field conducive to larger planes. Maybe a fleet of Park Fliers would be a better option for you given where you live coupled with your reluctance to drive?

Wow..
That may be the best post in this discussion.

Excellent points Dean and VERY well stated.

Wayne..query here...Is the proposal (the candito rcp for lack of better word) a co authored one.Seems there is a hidden agenda behind this if it did not go before the IMAC board first..Secondly a question concerning the re-emphasis of sound check...does this mean that every cd in YOUR region will be compelled to buy DB meter,tripod and set up a designated area to conduct testing...will there be certifications issued after test is done..will certification be transferrable from contest to contest...not trying to start crap ..just curious as to where this is all leading..Granted that this is a GUIDELINE that has been in place for a long time and has not been enforced as critically as it should or could be but are there not numerous guidelines that we do not enforce in order to increase membership..Could or is this not becoming a one dimensionable squabble in an individual region. As stated earlier there are many regions that have compromised with their neighbors and continue to fly. As you also stated some venues are just not able to support the concentrated sound on a given weekend of a contest. AS stated that IS the CD responsibility..We are beating this issued up and yet no one has come up with a viable solution merely appying a bandaid to a wound per-se..I dont have a solution only an opinion. This is probably the most difficult task we as members will have to attack...Truly it will always fall into the hands of the pilot no matter what is decided...THANKS YOU FOR ALL YOUR EFFORTS IN BRINGING THIS TO THE FOREGROUND AND THE WILLINGNESS TO AT LEAST BE PROACTIVE IN THIS BATTLE. THANKS POPS

Pops,

The Current RCP at the AMA only had one signature on it.

I have been told that if a CD is going to use sound testing at his contest he needs to secure equipment to do so.
I have also been told that there may be some equipment out there that in years past, was handed off from CD to CD during a season.
I am trying to find out whether that equipment still exists and if so, come up with a way for CD's to hand it off to the next CD who is going to use it.

There wasnt ever a certification when you passed a ground check that transferred from one contest to the next.
Back when sound testing was used regularly, you had to pass it at each event.

Originally Posted by Fixed Wing

Mike,

Thank you for making your post because you just gave support to some interesting points.

• Since you live in a “densely populated area” your local clubs have sound issues for ALL planes flying ALL year long. It is not just the once per year IMAC contest that causes these clubs problems or to lose their sites. Clearly these fields should either NOT host a contest or use a CD’s authority to announce special contest rules consistent with that club’s requirements.
• The fact that you claim you’re losing IMAC pilots because you have to drive long distances using $5 gas has nothing to do with IMAC sound rules. It has everything to do with where you live and the local club rules. Even if all IMAC planes were electric your local clubs would probably still have over fly issues because they are in densely populated areas.
• You say you sold your last IMAC plane and have no regrets doing so. Then why are you consistently trying to change IMAC for all pilots even if they fly at fields OK with the current rule structure? If you’re out of IMAC then be out. If you’re in IMAC then remember that the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" (Star Trek quote).

I too live in a densely populated area and drive over 1 hour each way to practice IMAC. However, that’s a life choice I made regarding where I live and the hobby I chose. Mandating equipment rules won’t change those facts. Flying large planes in the middle of dense populations makes no sense even if they are whisper quiet. That’s why I drive to a field conducive to larger planes. Maybe a fleet of Park Fliers would be a better option for you given where you live coupled with your reluctance to drive?

points well taken but if more cds could hold more events by making some sound adjustments, why would anyone not want to try and make small concessions to achieve this? by using sound as a judged part of a pilots routine throttle control without equipment changes could easily be adapted.there would be no cost to a pilot unless he uses poor throttle mgmt skills.just a thought.

Wayne,
Correct me if I am wrong but in this case, one person (maybe not even an IMAC member) is trying to change the rules for everyone? This doesn't even go through the IMAC board, so its kind of like an end around for this person to get his/her way?....seems wrong.

Originally Posted by flying skunks

seams to me , that one's " OPINION " has a lot to do with the sound score ," what sounds good " , rather than using a means to " properly " measure that sound that an aircraft makes .. A proper decimiel reading of the aircraft should solve this ..
my $.02

First off... this discussion would be better placed on the IMAC site... but that's another issue.

Dean couldn't have said it any better. (I also grew up in the NE flying mainly pattern... very quiet airplanes... in a densely populated area.)

Opinion has everything to do with it. The question is Who's opinion? The answer is, the opinion of the person living near the field that is complaining. So, even if we measure sound dB's and prove this and that, in a very scientific approach and meet our requirements... it still doesn't mean crap if the person living near the field doesn't want to hear it... or see it as well.

I can give you a great example. I flew at a field that has rules regarding flying on Sunday's before noon... just like many clubs do. You are however, permitted to fly gliders and electrics. We had a neighbor that was at least a mile from the pilots station that would complain from time to time. One morning this home owner got pissed and called the police AGAIN for a loud plane. I was at the field... the police show up to investigate the problem. The problem is there were only a hand full of guys there and only two guys flying... they were both non powered gliders, launched from highstarts.

So, since we can't seem to agree on a sound policy, do we need one? (sounds like the health care)

Maybe the best approach should be the CD of the event should specify sound limits if needed, just like an overfly area or no flying on Sunday before noon. Maybe we should create some base standards and have the CD choose the options for sound when they register the event. It should be known that it is up to the CD to enforce their rule, and they have the ultimate authority to decide if something is too loud.

Again, we know that the Triple Tree IMAC contest REQUIRES 3 blades and cans/pipes. So, if you don't have them or want them, then you don't go.

Maybe we should have some standards that the CD's can indicate for example:

Sound Control Standard Code;

1. No sound restrictions, no prop ripping
2. Must have effective muffler, canister or pipe
3. Must have 3 blade prop, all mufflers ok
4. Must have 3 blade prop and effective muffler, canister or pipe
5. Must meet 96 db ground sound level test, 6,000 rpm.


IMAC is moving to be international, and you have two options when doing this; Make requirements the same everywhere, or make configurable rules that can be selected to keep the contests within a framework and will meet local requirements.

I like your thoughts MattyMatt ..........................