Originally Posted by Wayne

I REALLY am hesitant to get into a snap discussion on the internet but, if your being judged by judge who knows what he is looking for and you snap the way just decribed, you should get a huge downgrade or even a zero (depending on degrees of rotation that did not carry pitch) if pitch is not maintained all the way through a snap.

Full scale and models are different.
Full scale uses pitch to actually stall the plane prior to auto-rotation. This happens becuase the wing loading of a full scale plane is much higher than a model.
In a model, we pitch to "simulate" the accelerated stall prior to autorotation. We are far from stalled though.
Wingloading on our models are simply too light to actually get the plane into an accelerated stall.

i understand that each judge is different and each competition is different. i was basically going by the books definition of a snap roll. but as long as you can see the plane depart just before it rolls you'll be fine. but you also have to remember that even though the physics are different between full scale and RC the manuvers are the same. thats how we got IMAC(International Miniture Aerobatic Club) basically a scaled down version of the IAC. most of the manuvers that we see on our sequences they see... until you start getting into the advanced and unlimited class(full scale) then the physical limits of the pilots and planes inhibit the ability to perform some manuvers that we dont even think about when we do them in RC.

Originally Posted by Wayne

And... FWIW...
Most, if not all IMAC pilots roll out their snaps.
Its not caught 99% of the time at a local level because the judges simply are used to seeing snaps look like that.
Doesnt make it right though.

im guilty of this to, but another reason that it might not be caught 99% of the time is that RC planes tend to snap much faster than full scale and they stop so abrubtly that it is hard to tell if they do aileron out. but we should seriously try to stop that. it couldnt hurt

what do you mean at the local level... like just a local comp at a field rather than like tuscon or nats?

Originally Posted by wcc963

as long as you can see the plane depart just before it rolls you'll be fine.

In IMAC it can (doesnt have to) pitch and roll at the same time.

another reason that it might not be caught 99% of the time is that RC planes tend to snap much faster than full scale and they stop so abrubtly that it is hard to tell if they do aileron out.

Not really. Its actually very easy to see when a snap is rolled out regardless of rate of rotation.

what do you mean at the local level... like just a local comp at a field rather than like tuscon or nats?

Yes. Local as in a local IMAC event on any given weekend in any Region.
When was the last time you heard of anyone getting zero-ed on a snap for rolling out at a local event where it was contestant judged?

Nats, Tucson, Clover... Roll one out and you may get away with it. Probably not though.

Originally Posted by blackbeer

Well, I spent the weekend trying to learn the "IMAC snap". For the last 50 years or so I have always done snaps with elevator, rudder, and aileron, all held until I wanted to end the snap, never even thought about just using elevator to start the snap. The Yak proved again that it flies much better then I do. Of the few times I got the timing close the Yak easily snaped and I was able to go right into the half cuban 8. This is going to take some serious practice but I see how it works so thanks again for letting me in on this. I also tried a few with out elevator at all and they looked pretty darn good. I can't wait till next year........................

Tom

Tom,
Glad to hear that it is working for you. Just make sure to show the break. Good luck with your practice.

Originally Posted by blackbeer

Still trying to get use to the Yak, it's my first one. The Velox has totally spoiled me. One of the things that drives me crazy about the Yak is how much speed it looses in a snap. Never even thought about the quick blip elevator trick. Anyway, you guys are a great help to the IMAC wanabees like me.
Take care;

Tom

You will appreciate the speed of that Yak just about the time you are into the 2nd or 3rd manuever of your unknown and need to fly s-l-o-w so you can get ready for the next manuever.......

Bill A.

Originally Posted by Badams

You will appreciate the speed of that Yak just about the time you are into the 2nd or 3rd manuever of your unknown and need to fly s-l-o-w so you can get ready for the next manuever.......

Bill A.

We know all about that don't we Bill!!!!

Originally Posted by Wayne

Not really. Its actually very easy to see when a snap is rolled out regardless of rate of rotation.

hmm i must not be doing it that often then... cool

Originally Posted by Wayne

Yes. Local as in a local IMAC event on any given weekend in any Region.
When was the last time you heard of anyone getting zero-ed on a snap for rolling out at a local event where it was contestant judged?

Nats, Tucson, Clover... Roll one out and you may get away with it. Probably not though.

well the main thing i've noticed with the judges at local events is they usually lack judging experience. from what i've seen its usually some of the higher class pilots and a few others who judge the lower classes.(i havent been able to travel very much due to finacial issues, so this is based on a few smaller local events) where as the larger national and international competitions have very well qualified judges. not saying that the local guys are not qualified but there can be some bias in the scoring of the local jusdges when pilots they know are flying compared to pilots that they dont know.

Originally Posted by blackbeer

Well, I spent the weekend trying to learn the "IMAC snap". For the last 50 years or so I have always done snaps with elevator, rudder, and aileron, all held until I wanted to end the snap, never even thought about just using elevator to start the snap. The Yak proved again that it flies much better then I do. Of the few times I got the timing close the Yak easily snaped and I was able to go right into the half cuban 8. This is going to take some serious practice but I see how it works so thanks again for letting me in on this. I also tried a few with out elevator at all and they looked pretty darn good. I can't wait till next year........................

Tom

the countless time spent practicing will all be worth it when you see your scores, and the flying starts to become easier

Originally Posted by mbacosa

We know all about that don't we Bill!!!!

If real life was like a simulator, I could dial the speed back to about 50% and always be ahead of the plane..........well mostly ahead of it anyway....... alright alright, i'd have to dial it down to 25% speed............

Originally Posted by wcc963

well the main thing i've noticed with the judges at local events is they usually lack judging experience. from what i've seen its usually some of the higher class pilots and a few others who judge the lower classes.(i havent been able to travel very much due to finacial issues, so this is based on a few smaller local events) where as the larger national and international competitions have very well qualified judges. not saying that the local guys are not qualified but there can be some bias in the scoring of the local jusdges when pilots they know are flying compared to pilots that they dont know.

I guess thats one way to look at it. I dont fully agree.
But anyways, my point referring to snaps..... Let go of the elevator early and you run the risk of a huge downgrade or a zero.

wayne do you have any info on the judging school in the spring for north central? dates and place

I don't have exact dates yet.
Most likely mid to late April in Muncie at the AMA headquarters.

cool thanks.

Originally Posted by wcc963

i understand that each judge is different and each competition is different. i was basically going by the books definition of a snap roll. but as long as you can see the plane depart just before it rolls you'll be fine. but you also have to remember that even though the physics are different between full scale and RC the manuvers are the same. thats how we got IMAC(International Miniture Aerobatic Club) basically a scaled down version of the IAC. most of the manuvers that we see on our sequences they see... until you start getting into the advanced and unlimited class(full scale) then the physical limits of the pilots and planes inhibit the ability to perform some manuvers that we dont even think about when we do them in RC.

I'm not really sure I understand what you mean here. If you are talking about IMAC then we use the same catalog (Aresti Systems Inc) as is being utilized in sequence construction for full scale (CIVA/FAI) sequences. So in effect, the catalog includes all maneuvers that are flown in constructed sequences for both disciplines.
Maybe you can enlighten us on the maneuvers that we use in IMAC for competition that meet the category you are addressing?
Wayne
IMAC Sequence Committee

Originally Posted by jamesrxx951

cool thanks.

You driving us?? I'll give you some gas money.

Tim

Wayne, I just saw your 2010 Sportsman video, and I notice that you weren't using much elevator in your snaps. I presume that this is universally ok, and contestants won't get dinged for this?