Maybe if I put the ailerons and elev on a switch, so that when I engage the switch, both ails go up, and elevs goes down... just for a second, will give the appearance of the plane crisply stalling???? anyone ever try that???

Originally Posted by Mithrandir

My Super Extra, my ZN-Line, my Funtana 140S, my AW Ulti, my AW Katana and my 38% GP Extra will all simply slow down to a mushy slightly nose down harrier type attitude with no distinct break....

All are slightly positive-pitch stable....

(I approach the stall/spin with power pulled to idle and pulling the nose up to maintain level flight path until is is so slow it starts to mush)

Mith,
I fly my ZN-Line with what most IMAC guys would think is a little too tail heavy a setup. However, it still is the easiest to spin plane I have. I have seen you fly many times, you like to fly high alpha stuff (why not, you fly mode 1, stir that pot!). My guess is that your CG is way back. Come down to Friday practice before the Mira Mar IMAC, we'll get the spin issue sorted out quickly there. No fancy switches needed!

No way....Mith flies mode 1....... !!!!

I have the same problem with getting the "break". The pattern planes I flew 20 years ago had a much higher wing loading. Today I'm amazed we got them to spin or snap at all; with the amount of elevator/rudder throw we had back then.

I think it has to do with the extremely light wing loadings we enjoy today. Think of it: our airplanes today will "harrier". Can you think of any airplane from 20 years ago that could have done that?

My theory is the light wing loading, combined with a flight idle that is a little high (I do this with a switch to ensure the engine won't die at idle durring violent maneuvers) makes the airframes of today mush rather than break.

Could you give the illusion of a break by quickly releasing some back pressure then popping in spin controls?

Jim

Originally Posted by cap231jim

No way....Mith flies mode 1....... !!!!

Jim

Yep, mode 1. Not only that, he just recently cut off his circa 1970 pony tail. Some guys just take a little longer than others to catch up.

Fit your airplane into a spin entry "Keyhole". This is accomplished by being ABSOLUTELY wings level, and NOT decending, even a little bit, as you slow to a stall. Remember, NO spin without yaw (rudder) input. It's all a matter of timing...
Old Dawg

Originally Posted by Mithrandir

Maybe if I put the ailerons and elev on a switch, so that when I engage the switch, both ails go up, and elevs goes down... just for a second, will give the appearance of the plane crisply stalling???? anyone ever try that???

You're not going to like this, but rather than try to figure out how to make it "look" like it stalled why not actual learn to stall the plane?? If all your planes suffer from a soft looking stall then I suspect that there is something in how you set up your planes that is the issue.

Originally Posted by G limit

Fit your airplane into a spin entry "Keyhole". This is accomplished by being ABSOLUTELY wings level, and NOT decending, even a little bit, as you slow to a stall. Remember, NO spin without yaw (rudder) input. It's all a matter of timing...
Old Dawg

Like you know anything about how to spin a plane

Originally Posted by Judge

You're not going to like this, but rather than try to figure out how to make it "look" like it stalled why not actual learn to stall the plane?? If all your planes suffer from a soft looking stall then I suspect that there is something in how you set up your planes that is the issue.

ummm... well..... other then being nearly nuetral in pitch stability & with 45 degrees of available elev throw.... there isn't anything special....

Originally Posted by Mithrandir

ummm... well..... other then being nearly nuetral in pitch stability & with 45 degrees of available elev throw.... there isn't anything special....

And yet ALL your planes will not spin correctly according to your description. I suspect what you are calling "nearly neutral" is nowhere near that!!

If you can I'd take Bwana Steve's offer to help if you are going to the Miramar contest.

Originally Posted by Judge

And yet ALL your planes will not spin correctly according to your description. I suspect what you are calling "nearly neutral" is nowhere near that!!

If you can I'd take Bwana Steve's offer to help if you are going to the Miramar contest.

When I get my SX going again... we can drop the program on your Tx and you can see what I mean.....

Originally Posted by Mithrandir

When I get my SX going again... we can drop the program on your Tx and you can see what I mean.....

It's a date. I'll bring a corsage for you. Dress nice!!

Originally Posted by Mithrandir

My Super Extra, my ZN-Line, my Funtana 140S, my AW Ulti, my AW Katana and my 38% GP Extra will all simply slow down to a mushy slightly nose down harrier type attitude with no distinct break....

All are slightly positive-pitch stable....

(I approach the stall/spin with power pulled to idle and pulling the nose up to maintain level flight path until is is so slow it starts to mush)

My plane does the same thing, but you are probably waitng for it to break left or right on its ow and you just can't do that. As soon as the plane drops its nose initiate the spin with rudder and it will start spinning. Add aileron as needed, but only after the spin has initiated. If you add it too soon. you can zero in a heartbeat. IF at any point in the spin initiation, either wingtip rises above the original flight path it can be considered a forced entry. This can even happen after the plane has stalled if there is a strong headwind.
I have only zero'd a spin twice at IMAC contests One was due to over-rotation, and the other one was at the Tucson shootout in 35mph winds. The plane did stall, but I added aileron too soon and the judges perceived it as a forced entry because the wind picked up the wing tip above the flight path.

Originally Posted by bodywerks

IF at any point in the spin initiation, either wingtip rises above the original flight path it can be considered a forced entry.

I'd like to clear up something. There is a lot of confusion about the "forced entry" to a spin. The above circumstance is NOT a forced entry. Here is what the rule book says (Page SCA-26):

Normal spins (upright spins entered from upright flight, or inverted spins entered from inverted flight): When the aircraft stalls, the nose will fall and at the same time the wing tip will drop in the direction of the spin. Failure to achieve this should be considered a ―forced entry and downgraded 0.5 points per 5 degrees of deviation.

So first notice that a forced entry really means that you "forced" the rotation to start after the nose dropped. Also note that while many judges will zero a spin that starts in one direction and then is "forced" into the other this is incorrect to do. If a plane stalls, and the left wing drop say 15 degrees and then the pilot "forces" the spin in the opposite direction it is NOT a zero. It is a 1.5 point downgrade.

The ONLY automatic zeroes in spins are:

1) Failure to stall the plane/snap roll entry
2) Failure to autorotate

Everything else is scored at 0.5 points per 5 degrees of error.

And here is another huge scoring error I see often, downgrades for wind correction before the spin.

Again, from the rules:

Spins are stalled maneuvers and as such, the spin part of the maneuver should not be wind corrected and judges should not downgrade any wind drift happening during the autorotation.

On the other hand, the horizontal entry line preceding the stall must be wind corrected. This means that in the case of a strong crosswind, the aircraft might be forced to crab in order to maintain a straight flight path. As the aircraft‘s horizontal speed decreases, the crabbing angle will most probably increase and this variation in heading must not be downgraded. This variation of heading should also be included in the prescribed autorotation. For instance, if the aircraft‘s heading is 30 degrees off to the left before entering a one-turn positive spin, the rotation should only be 330 degrees if doing a left turn spin (Fig. 59), or 390 degrees if doing a right turn spin.

In theory in the case of a really strong 90 degree crosswind a plane could be 90 degrees to the line of flight for wind correction and NOT be downgraded. The amount (number of degrees of cross wind correction) is either added or subtracted from the total degrees of revolution of the spin. The spin must still stop at the correct point as if there were no wind. (i.e. wings either perfectly parallel or at 90 degrees to the flight line). Failure to do so is downgraded at 0.5 points per 5 degrees of error.

Oh ya wind and spins! Everyone who judges should read Judge's post. I think before the contests begin the CD should discuss how to judge Spins and Snaps! And don't get me started on snaps! LOL

where is Don?!!??!?!!?

he he he he