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Old 02-03-2013, 10:20 AM   #91
Languid Virago
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Quote: Originally Posted by Elkster
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Just a question, but does anyone know if there are often shortages for the European planes like Comp-ARF and Krill?
depends how you define shortage, Krills are generally made to definate orders, there are usually quite a few Katanas, Sukhois and Yaks on the shelf still at various dealers, i doubt there are many new Extra 330s skulking around unsold.

if you don't mind the colour choice, most of the range can be gotten off the shelf from someone. there are a few dealers with some nice sales of Krills at the moment, 20% off, 25% at one. but these are the older pre revision versions or unpopular standard colour schemes.

CARF I have less idea of, but I think they are made in Thailand, and so shipping delays may interupt the supply to a greater extent.

But generally, no, the big shortage issues seems to be mostly the China made ARFs, long shipping times and that the factories have a habit of making very large batches of the same plane, and then moving over to another one. composites planes tend to be a more individual and paced continious production of each model type.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:14 PM   #92
astrohog
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I recently ordered a CARF P-47 and received it in less than a week. Not sure about their aerobatic stuff.

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Old 02-03-2013, 04:57 PM   #93
Steve Graham
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Quote: Originally Posted by jtec/radiowave
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Chris,

I have seen people buy ARF because of color, not quality or performance.


Al Young
+1. Reference the radio threads where many consumer's primary focus seems to be how a TX looks. Not quality, or performance.

I met Al last year at XFC and really enjoyed talking to him about his product. It was clear he makes a great product that he is proud of and I will hopefully get around to building one someday.

All these discussions on the economics of the business are interesting. Here's a couple further complications for those of you who would attempt to quantify the market place.

1. Irrational behavior on the part of either consumer or producer. When emotion be it anger, pride, sex appeal etc enter into the equation it becomes very difficult to predict markets. One thing is certain. Someone pays a price in terms of loss of profit or utility.

Corollary to 1. The consumer is NOT always right. I've seen companies make million dollar investments to enter a market place that consumers were clamoring for only to find out that the same consumers were unwilling to come to the table with dollars once the product became available. A company's marketing department has to be savvy enough to not only listen to customers but somehow determine whether or not they will follow through with their wallets. Witness the hue and cry for ARC aircraft. Has any company that has ever delivered on this request sold more than just a very few aircraft?

2. To the extent that a producer can achieve good will and brand identity among his customers he can gain what we call market power. A consumer who is convinced that brand A is better than brand B will be willing to go to greater lengths to acquire brand A. Be it waiting for the product to be in stock or paying a premium for it. The more market power Brand A enjoys the more they can use it to manipulate output to maximize profits. The highest degree of market power is enjoyed by a monopoly. In a monopoly produces almost always restrict output to maximize profits.

3. Entering into a business venture primarily for the love of it is often attempted. Most frequently the business suffers when the owner realizes the daily grind has sucked out all the passion he once had for things. You can have both passion and a good business sense but the latter has to take priority. A business can not succeed by placing love of customer above profits. That is a utopian dream most often held by people who have never lived it.

BTW, I often let my emotions impact my buying decisions. In the long run I accept that I pay the price for those decisions. It is also why I would make a terrible business owner!

Steve, who waited happily if not a little impatiently for his EF plane.
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:35 AM   #94
Luchnia
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Quote: Originally Posted by Steve Graham
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+1. Reference the radio threads where many consumer's primary focus seems to be how a TX looks. Not quality, or performance.

I met Al last year at XFC and really enjoyed talking to him about his product. It was clear he makes a great product that he is proud of and I will hopefully get around to building one someday.

All these discussions on the economics of the business are interesting. Here's a couple further complications for those of you who would attempt to quantify the market place.

1. Irrational behavior on the part of either consumer or producer. When emotion be it anger, pride, sex appeal etc enter into the equation it becomes very difficult to predict markets. One thing is certain. Someone pays a price in terms of loss of profit or utility.

Corollary to 1. The consumer is NOT always right. I've seen companies make million dollar investments to enter a market place that consumers were clamoring for only to find out that the same consumers were unwilling to come to the table with dollars once the product became available. A company's marketing department has to be savvy enough to not only listen to customers but somehow determine whether or not they will follow through with their wallets. Witness the hue and cry for ARC aircraft. Has any company that has ever delivered on this request sold more than just a very few aircraft?

2. To the extent that a producer can achieve good will and brand identity among his customers he can gain what we call market power. A consumer who is convinced that brand A is better than brand B will be willing to go to greater lengths to acquire brand A. Be it waiting for the product to be in stock or paying a premium for it. The more market power Brand A enjoys the more they can use it to manipulate output to maximize profits. The highest degree of market power is enjoyed by a monopoly. In a monopoly produces almost always restrict output to maximize profits.

3. Entering into a business venture primarily for the love of it is often attempted. Most frequently the business suffers when the owner realizes the daily grind has sucked out all the passion he once had for things. You can have both passion and a good business sense but the latter has to take priority. A business can not succeed by placing love of customer above profits. That is a utopian dream most often held by people who have never lived it.

BTW, I often let my emotions impact my buying decisions. In the long run I accept that I pay the price for those decisions. It is also why I would make a terrible business owner!

Steve, who waited happily if not a little impatiently for his EF plane.

I think bullet 1 is reasonably on target. I believe customers are wrong quite often, yet when treated with respect they usually come around. I would find it difficult to try to determine what a customer will buy.

Bullet 2 and 3 I disagree somewhat with. Most of the guys I have flown with over the past three years will not op for the quality of brand A at the price point of brand A.

They just buy brand B most of the time simply because funds dictate the purchase and they believe they can buy more for less. That has been my observation of the guys I fly with. I simply do not know the global consensus on this. Yet I somehow believe that globally this is more acurate or there would not be so many foreign shops selling ARFs for practically nothing - nothing more than a guess on my part though.

As far as number 3 I have lived it and did make it work for many years. As a fact for many years of my life. I had reasonable business sense (not great) and a love for the people, the business, and it did work. This was years ago and may not be the case today as I have been out of it for a while, but I faired well by treating my customers good and working hard doing the "daily grind" as you put it. I received a decent wage over those years.

There are many variables that change the equations and it is hard to see them all. I do think love of the customer is paramount or the business has little basis in my book. I am sure today's business man will skalk (sp?) at me for that statement. So I remain "old school" when it comes to people.

I had no less than three competitive businesses selling, almost identical items and in some cases identical items, within around 5-10 miles of one of my businesses and I had customers tell me they drove by the others because of the desire to do business with me. I held that in high esteem and still great memories today.

One statement you made is extremely important and that is basically you must keep emotions out of it. I have found that emotions will usually get in front of your mind and drive a bad decision and in the end every can lose. A sound mind is much more important in my way of thinking (pun intended)
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:40 AM   #95
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Quote: Originally Posted by orthobird
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Just for clarification, this question is for JTEC = Al Young:
Are your kits made in USA and everything is cut to order? Nothing comes from China if i were to order one of your planes?
My spring project is to (have my contractor friend) build a workshop for me in my back yard (20 x 12 feet). Once this is complete, then i would love to build one of the big aerobatic kits.
We do everything right here in Mooresville, NC. I out source the canopy which is made in Ashville, NC. Landing gear is either Graphtech in TX or TNT in OH. Cowls come out of IL.

Of course Balsa is purchased from Several US companies, Plywood comes from a local distributor and foam is from a local mfg.


All cutting is done in our shop


This also includes our muffler manufacturing. Its all done in Mooresville, NC USA

MADE WITH PRIDE IN THE USA

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Old 02-04-2013, 09:12 AM   #96
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Quote: Originally Posted by Steve Graham
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+1. Reference the radio threads where many consumer's primary focus seems to be how a TX looks. Not quality, or performance.

I met Al last year at XFC and really enjoyed talking to him about his product. It was clear he makes a great product that he is proud of and I will hopefully get around to building one someday.

All these discussions on the economics of the business are interesting. Here's a couple further complications for those of you who would attempt to quantify the market place.

1. Irrational behavior on the part of either consumer or producer. When emotion be it anger, pride, sex appeal etc enter into the equation it becomes very difficult to predict markets. One thing is certain. Someone pays a price in terms of loss of profit or utility.

Corollary to 1. The consumer is NOT always right. I've seen companies make million dollar investments to enter a market place that consumers were clamoring for only to find out that the same consumers were unwilling to come to the table with dollars once the product became available. A company's marketing department has to be savvy enough to not only listen to customers but somehow determine whether or not they will follow through with their wallets. Witness the hue and cry for ARC aircraft. Has any company that has ever delivered on this request sold more than just a very few aircraft?

2. To the extent that a producer can achieve good will and brand identity among his customers he can gain what we call market power. A consumer who is convinced that brand A is better than brand B will be willing to go to greater lengths to acquire brand A. Be it waiting for the product to be in stock or paying a premium for it. The more market power Brand A enjoys the more they can use it to manipulate output to maximize profits. The highest degree of market power is enjoyed by a monopoly. In a monopoly produces almost always restrict output to maximize profits.

3. Entering into a business venture primarily for the love of it is often attempted. Most frequently the business suffers when the owner realizes the daily grind has sucked out all the passion he once had for things. You can have both passion and a good business sense but the latter has to take priority. A business can not succeed by placing love of customer above profits. That is a utopian dream most often held by people who have never lived it.

BTW, I often let my emotions impact my buying decisions. In the long run I accept that I pay the price for those decisions. It is also why I would make a terrible business owner!

Steve, who waited happily if not a little impatiently for his EF plane.
Great post...although summarized, as a book could be written on the infinite variables as Luchnia points out, you hit many high points exactly IMO. You either have first hand experience or well studied.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:38 PM   #97
proteus
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I am having a bad experience with Graphtech... They are too late on my order and doesn't get me hope to see my goods..
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