Yeah Gmilo, I seen that video a few times, you have skills man.
Your rolling circle and single roll circle are so perfect.
Awesome landing too.

Dennis,

It does make a difference. I have never flown one but Quique wanted to do the pocket hinges on the wooden ARF QQAC Yak. This is perhaps 4 1/2 years ago, I don't exactly remember maybe 5 years ago. We never did mention it to customers, it was part of an enhancement we wanted to do on the 120" before introducing it. Long story short, OEM shipped him a pair of pocket hinge type and Quique flew it back to back with the regular hinge type wings he had. He told me he immediately felt a sort of sluggishness and loss of crispness in rolls/snaps and stops. He did not like them at all. This is way before even Seth trying a similar situation for a different project which I am not aware of.

I also would like to tell you something about some of the stand up guys we have in this hobby such as Quique, Seth and others like them. These people do not claim they have the answer to all the questions. They go by experimenting and experiencing things. One day Quique and I were talking about a subject, he told me he feels something we were discussing flies better. He said he can't tell me why but he can tell me it is better than something else we were discussing. Moral of the story, these people have spent thousands of hours flying and excelling in their fields. They are not scientists in a special field to have an answer as why certain things are the way they are for everything that may come up. I am an engineer and having worked about 15 years for many reputable, big aerospace companies, I hardly know my own area, my colleague next bay knows something else. Quique knows about designing and fine tuning airplanes based on his long fruitful career doing from very young ages. Seth flying credential is also right on top. Quique regards him as one of the best we have in the US and the World. These people are passionate about this hobby and know their field very well. I take these guys designs and words any day just because they are that good.

Hope this helps in some ways, although I do not have the answer to your question except for some guesses that I am keeping to myself.

Originally Posted by dhawks

I guess I'm just skeptical when I read a post from a sponsored pilot going on about how the hinge type makes a huge difference in the way the plane flies and that beveled hinges are the best of the bunch. The truth is, if the plane had been designed with pocket hinges, Seth would have posted how great the plane flies because it has pocket hinges. You want to know why? Because he is sponsored! It's what he gets paid to do!

Dennis

Originally Posted by dhawks

Carruthers43,

Extreme Flight almost certainly changed from the pocket style hinges to the bevel type because it is WAY cheaper and easier to manufacture an ARF this way, not because it makes the plane fly better. But, it's hard to argue with your analysis...Extreme Flight is doing it therefore it must be something to it!



Your point about Seth is correct. Based solely on his post you can't help but conclude that he is brilliant. I mean he used terms like Reynolds numbers and stuff. That's proof enough for me! He's a great pilot too because based on your post you've seen him and 99% of us fly and rate him the best.

I guess I'm just skeptical when I read a post from a sponsored pilot going on about how the hinge type makes a huge difference in the way the plane flies and that beveled hinges are the best of the bunch. The truth is, if the plane had been designed with pocket hinges, Seth would have posted how great the plane flies because it has pocket hinges. You want to know why? Because he is sponsored! It's what he gets paid to do!

Dennis

Anyone who has experience flying a big plane with pocket hinges on the wings and stabs can tell you they are not as good. It requires more surface deflection and servo power to get close to the same results as beveled hinging. It was a great idea but not the best results.

Its not even a stretch to call it a big or even a huge difference.

Originally Posted by littledevile420

sweet vid gmilo, thats exactly my thoughts when i seen this coming out. new improved 3w yak .i love it. i love the old wood ones and always wanted the big 3w yak.

Right on Devil!

Originally Posted by louu

Yeah Gmilo, I seen that video a few times, you have skills man.
Your rolling circle and single roll circle are so perfect.
Awesome landing too.

Thx Louu. QuiQui designs fly like no other!

Originally Posted by Reza

Dennis,

It does make a difference. I have never flown one but Quique wanted to do the pocket hinges on the wooden ARF QQAC Yak. This is perhaps 4 1/2 years ago, I don't exactly remember maybe 5 years ago. We never did mention it to customers, it was part of an enhancement we wanted to do on the 120" before introducing it. Long story short, OEM shipped him a pair of pocket hinge type and Quique flew it back to back with the regular hinge type wings he had. He told me he immediately felt a sort of sluggishness and loss of crispness in rolls/snaps and stops. He did not like them at all. This is way before even Seth trying a similar situation for a different project which I am not aware of.

I also would like to tell you something about some of the stand up guys we have in this hobby such as Quique, Seth and others like them. These people do not claim they have the answer to all the questions. They go by experimenting and experiencing things. One day Quique and I were talking about a subject, he told me he feels something we were discussing flies better. He said he can't tell me why but he can tell me it is better than something else we were discussing. Moral of the story, these people have spent thousands of hours flying and excelling in their fields. They are not scientists in a special field to have an answer as why certain things are the way they are for everything that may come up. I am an engineer and having worked about 15 years for many reputable, big aerospace companies, I hardly know my own area, my colleague next bay knows something else. Quique knows about designing and fine tuning airplanes based on his long fruitful career doing from very young ages. Seth flying credential is also right on top. Quique regards him as one of the best we have in the US and the World. These people are passionate about this hobby and know their field very well. I take these guys designs and words any day just because they are that good.

Hope this helps in some ways, although I do not have the answer to your question except for some guesses that I am keeping to myself.

Reza,

Thanks for the background on this. I went back and read through the thread again and my comments were inappropriate and rude.

Seth, I apologize for the remarks directed at you personally. I don't know you and I failed to respect your knowledge and experience here. I also in no way want to diminish what Horizon is doing with this model. Quique's reputation and his design speak for themselves and it's great to see Horizon venturing into the composite market with a proven design.

Once again I apologize for letting my cynicism get the better of me.

Dennis

I was part of that aileron test with Quique a few years ago. The roll rate was lower with the pocket hinges on the YAK. There are many reasons why and when we tried it, Seth was just a kid in a high school somewhere in Ohio at the time.

Why are pocket hinges acceptable on the tail feathers and not the ailerons? It has a bit to do with the shape of the surfaces being very low aspect ratio compared to the ailerons that are high aspect ratio. So pocket hinges can be used on RC model tail feathers with less negative effects than on RC model ailerons.

Why do we use them on full scale ailerons if they don't work on RC controls? Simple. We can't stick 2, 4, 6 or 8 guys in the wings to move the ailerons. Engineering and design are exercises in compromise. While RC designers, for example, have to adjust designs to compensate for the lack of scaled down air, we full scale guys are stuck using human beings to move the controls. Because of the limited human capabilities, we have to use both aerodynamically and mass balance boosted ailerons, tail, etc.

Quique and Seth are not blowing sunshine up skirts. Some people in this Flying Giants community, like other forums, repeatedly use the word "think" in sentences that would be better formed using the word "assume." Guys like Quique "know" the reasons why they design the way they do. They just don't spend time here going into more detail than most could comprehend since there is no need to educate their competition in the RC industry. This is why I enjoy my time here and the projects I do with Quique. We get to share ideas between RC and full scale, then we build things and test them but we have to carefully select the info shared in forum posts or stories in magazines to keep secrets just that, share what we need to for consumer info, and then maybe some misinformation to throw the competition off the trail just a bit to buy some time while we dream up the next best thing!

The new YAK from Quique and Horizon will speak for itself when they get into customer hands.

No worries Dennis! I believe in these forums. Everyone on it shares the same interest. We all want to have the most fun but we are all very different and we get enjoyment out of different things in the hobby. One cares about the look, one flying aspect, the other loves building more than flying and I can go on and on...It's all good in my book

Originally Posted by dhawks

Reza,

Thanks for the background on this. I went back and read through the thread again and my comments were inappropriate and rude.



Dennis

Originally Posted by husker

He is not sponsored by horizon... he WORKS for horizon hobby.

To be clear, I work for Horizon, and I am also sponsored by Horizon.

Originally Posted by dhawks

Reza,

Thanks for the background on this. I went back and read through the thread again and my comments were inappropriate and rude.

Seth, I apologize for the remarks directed at you personally. I don't know you and I failed to respect your knowledge and experience here. I also in no way want to diminish what Horizon is doing with this model. Quique's reputation and his design speak for themselves and it's great to see Horizon venturing into the composite market with a proven design.

Once again I apologize for letting my cynicism get the better of me.

Dennis

No problem!

Originally Posted by kjkimball

I was part of that aileron test with Quique a few years ago. The roll rate was lower with the pocket hinges on the YAK. There are many reasons why and when we tried it, Seth was just a kid in a high school somewhere in Ohio at the time.

Why are pocket hinges acceptable on the tail feathers and not the ailerons? It has a bit to do with the shape of the surfaces being very low aspect ratio compared to the ailerons that are high aspect ratio. So pocket hinges can be used on RC model tail feathers with less negative effects than on RC model ailerons.

Why do we use them on full scale ailerons if they don't work on RC controls? Simple. We can't stick 2, 4, 6 or 8 guys in the wings to move the ailerons. Engineering and design are exercises in compromise. While RC designers, for example, have to adjust designs to compensate for the lack of scaled down air, we full scale guys are stuck using human beings to move the controls. Because of the limited human capabilities, we have to use both aerodynamically and mass balance boosted ailerons, tail, etc.

Quique and Seth are not blowing sunshine up skirts. Some people in this Flying Giants community, like other forums, repeatedly use the word "think" in sentences that would be better formed using the word "assume." Guys like Quique "know" the reasons why they design the way they do. They just don't spend time here going into more detail than most could comprehend since there is no need to educate their competition in the RC industry. This is why I enjoy my time here and the projects I do with Quique. We get to share ideas between RC and full scale, then we build things and test them but we have to carefully select the info shared in forum posts or stories in magazines to keep secrets just that, share what we need to for consumer info, and then maybe some misinformation to throw the competition off the trail just a bit to buy some time while we dream up the next best thing!

The new YAK from Quique and Horizon will speak for itself when they get into customer hands.

Thanks for the explanation Kevin. I never knew why, just knew that it worked better on models from flying back to back! I'll log this info back into the full scale folder of my brain!

Back on topic...

I'm really excited for this airplane myself. This is what I'll fly at XFC this year!

Seth

Originally Posted by 3D-Seth

Thanks for the explanation Kevin. I never knew why, just knew that it worked better on models from flying back to back! I'll log this info back into the full scale folder of my brain!

Back on topic...

I'm really excited for this airplane myself. This is what I'll fly at XFC this year!

Seth

That ought to be some high energy, blinding fast stuff with this new composite airframe. My eyes can barely keep up, let alone my thumbs

BTW put Reza in that catagory of very knowledgable, honest people who, if they don't know, will say so, but will then go and find the correct answer for you, and then you both know.

Originally Posted by Badams

BTW put Reza in that catagory of very knowledgable, honest people who, if they don't know, will say so, but will then go and find the correct answer for you, and then you both know.

Great discussion on the way these planes surfaces are hinged, thanks. Beveled beat pocket hinging! Next up, Beveled VS Top Hinged! This is the big battle for me because I have long eyed those Carf surface hinged beauties, but with this new QQ Yak on the scene I am really excited about the plane.

some luv the sound the compy makes ........ shock and awe!

EDIT forgot to ask, any word on when the Manual will go live?

What's up Greg! Cool video and glad to see your old 3W Yak going thru the paces. I was there at EBRC years ago when the motor flamed out and it went into the rough pasture, lota damage that day, but it is obviously alive and well, and looking good. I haven't seen you fly since EBRC went all electric... Anywhoo, still got the 102" QQ Yak you helped me with back then.
I would never question the flying quality of a QQ aircraft, stickers and warts are no biggie. Gotta fire up the sim and work on my one roll circles and loops now
PM me if you ever want to come burn some Livermore air out at LFE with us, Eric