"Clearest Presentation" or "Proper Gemotery" which to judge by.

[KrisW]

There is a controversy that has not been addressed in the F&JG, and a lot of people are tired of it.

Which do you prefer for PROPER judging of manuvers?

"Clearest presentation" of the Geometry of the manuver, where no matter where the plane is located you strive to make the loops "appear" perfectly round, the lines "appear" to be the exact angle the aresti requires, and factors such as location, paralax view, and optical illusion are not considered by the judge. .


OR

You fly the manuvers EXACTLY as stipulated in the Aresti, making your 45's verticals and horizontals EXACTLY on those lines, your looping manuvers exactly round, no matter if the angle on the loop makes it appear to be oval, and the Judge is required to KNOW about the fact that differing placement of the aircraft inside the AC space is going to present a perfect manuver that does not appear to be so.

What say you??

[exeter_acres]

crap...people are judging me at those events????

[exeter_acres]

Well...this is what the rules state:

	Quote:
	Loops and partial loops must be round, vertical lines must be perpendicular to the horizon and horizontal line parallel to the X or Y-axis. For 45-degree lines, judges must make an allowance for the aircraft’s position relative to their own. A true 45 degree line flown at the end of the aerobatic airspace will appear steeper when flown towards the end of the airspace and shallow when flown towards the center. Judging is of the true line flown and judges should not downgrade the maneuver for visual deformation due to the angle it is observed. Always give the competitor the benefit of the doubt when not sure.

So what is the question...or am I way off base??


Oh and by the by... I agree.. Planes weathervane

[digger44]

I say fly it right. I'm pretty new to IMAC flying, havn't competed yet, and can't imagine trying to fly different loops and lines based on the angle of vision. It's hard enough to fly round loops and straight lines as it is. Wait a minute<<<<maybe it is to my advantage to fly what might be perceived as round or straight. A lot more "Subjective Judgement" involved in judging weather a line "looks" straight or a 45 "looks" like a 45 or a loop "looks" round.. Yup, could be to my advantage..

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by exeter_acres
	Well...this is what the rules state: So what is the question...or am I way off base?? Oh and by the by... I agree.. Planes weathervane

You have quoted the rule precisely. Now, go back and examine the idea between the statement concerning "clearest presentation" in other words, make it look, to the judge, that the manuver "looks" perfect, no matter how badly you have to deform it to make it look that way. Herein lies the problem. . GUIDELINE (not RULE) A "clearest presentation" does, or does not, trump RULE B: Proper Geometry??

I'd say without a doubt that the Guideline is fogging up perfectly good rules.

[paffy]

What's wrong with flying a true geometry so that it presents clearly ?

P.

[sweetpea]

Rules are always going to be open to interperation. By that I mean thisss...What the judge thinks he sees is what he will score (according to the criteria in the rules).

What you'll tend to notice is better pilots present the sequence so its easy for the judge to see. If that means centering a manuver that isn't required to be centered, so be it. Give the judge a reason to downgrade and they will.

It would be great if all judges were just that......experienced, trained, paid to do it, and not partial. But since we use ourselves to judge.....you get the good with the bad....but so does everyone else.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by paffy
	What's wrong with flying a true geometry so that it presents clearly ? P.

Absolutely nothing. . but please remember. . True Geometry is how it should be flown. Presenting the True Geometry clearly is perfection. Hoping the Judge has the experience to see your perfect manuver for what it is, no matter where it is located... now THAT is the hard part.

[Wayne]

	Quote: Originally Posted by KrisW
	I'd say without a doubt that the Guideline is fogging up perfectly good rules.

I'd say threads like this do that more than the rules or guidelines do.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Wayne
	I'd say threads like this do that more than the rules or guidelines do.

Naw .. this is just to get people THINKING. The lack of clarification from the rules Committee or BOD on the obvious diametric opposition of what the rules say, and what the "clearest presentation" statement says (or is interpretted as saying) is what causes the problem.

It's time this little convulsion got fixed. Either we need to look at the "clearest presentation" statement with the weight it has (which means. . none . . . when compared to the rules themselves) or totally re-write the F&JG to allow subjective judging again, because that is what the "Clearest presentation" statement is being presented as by certain parties within IMAC.

[Wayne]

Have fun.
I'm going flying.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Wayne
	Have fun. I'm going flying.

So am I.

[paffy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Wayne
	I'd say threads like this do that more than the rules or guidelines do.

Yeah.

Then you get a 6 on a perfect 10 figure, because you flew it per rule book and the judge says "but So and So high ranking IMAC official told me it should be flown different". And that's what seems to be happening here

P.

[Wayne]

I know I've never flown a perfect 10 figure. Have you?

I know I've been judged higher and lower than what was actually flown on many occasions.
Its part of the game. Judging is subjective. No way around it.
Haave fun and dont get wrapped up in the semantics of the hobby.

[Shawn Berkheimer]

Ok how many times and how many ways can this be said until Kris finally gets " IT ".

IF IT LOOKS RIGHT THEN IT IS RIGHT!!!

Flying so that the judges " preceive " the airplane doing exactly what they expect it to do is part of the game. Either get over it and accept that if you want good scores you have to fly accordingly or fly the sequence " correctly " as seen through your eyes and continue to leave the contest empty handed.

Shawn