"Clearest Presentation" or "Proper Gemotery" which to judge by.

[paffy]

I'm sure you have flown a perfect 10. With little luck, a 45 line with a single snap can be flown as 10.

I don't mind getting higher/lower score based on subjectivity. If judges idea of wing level/vertical/ whatever is slightly different than mine - that's part of the game.

But it's a problem, if two judges agree "Yes - that was a TRUE 45 line" and one takes 2 points off for it, while the other makes no deduction, because it was flown to the side of the box and looked like 25°.

P.

[paffy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Shawn Berkheimer
	Ok how many times and how many ways can this be said until Kris finally gets " IT ". IF IT LOOKS RIGHT THEN IT IS RIGHT!!! Flying so that the judges " preceive " the airplane doing exactly what they expect it to do is part of the game. Either get over it and accept that if you want good scores you have to fly accordingly or fly the sequence " correctly " as seen through your eyes and continue to leave the contest empty handed. Shawn

And what page of rulebook mentions "IF IT LOOKS RIGHT THEN IT IS RIGHT" ?

All I currently see in the rulebook are explanations on how the judge has to adjust for the figures NOT looking "right". It's been there like this for 16+ years.

P.

[Shawn Berkheimer]

	Quote: Originally Posted by paffy
	I'm sure you have flown a perfect 10. With little luck, a 45 line with a single snap can be flown as 10. I don't mind getting higher/lower score based on subjectivity. If judges idea of wing level/vertical/ whatever is slightly different than mine - that's part of the game. But it's a problem, if two judges agree "Yes - that was a TRUE 45 line" and one takes 2 points off for it, while the other makes no deduction, because it was flown to the side of the box and looked like 25°. P.

As long as a judge holds the same criteria for every pilot in the round it really doesn't matter. The fact is that this is a subjective sport we have chosen to compete. It's not perfect and never will be. we need to consider limitations that come with having human beings judging us and fly with those limitations in mind.

Shawn

[paffy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Shawn Berkheimer
	As long as a judge holds the same criteria for every pilot in the round it really doesn't matter. The fact is that this is a subjective sport we have chosen to compete. It's not perfect and never will be. we need to consider limitations that come with having human beings judging us and fly with those limitations in mind. Shawn

Because there are limitations of human judging introducing large errors already, the last thing you need is two totally opposite camps applying different set of rules on top of it !

You can't excuse one judge showing you a 25° line saying "this is what I want you to present your 45° lines like" and other judge saying "you have to fly true 45, no matter what".

P.

[exeter_acres]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Wayne
	Have fun. I'm going flying.

too dark for me......

[sweetpea]

	Quote: Originally Posted by paffy
	You can't excuse one judge showing you a 25° line saying "this is what I want you to present your 45° lines like" and other judge saying "you have to fly true 45, no matter what". P.

Yes you can excuse that.......if that judge (who sounds to be a poor judge) holds his criteria the same throughout his round of judging then after NORMALIZATION this poor judging will not matter

[GremlinX]

Pattern is too hard...

[JeremyHolt]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Wayne
	Have fun. I'm going flying.

At 7:30pm?

[Wayne]

Ya.
Street lights are on.

Electrics buzzing the neighborhood.

[JeremyHolt]

Aghh yes.. street lights.

[paffy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by sweetpea
	Yes you can excuse that.......if that judge (who sounds to be a poor judge) holds his criteria the same throughout his round of judging then after NORMALIZATION this poor judging will not matter

You and I might think he's a bad judge, but there seems to be a lot of people who sympathize with his kind of judging, therefor they'll present the sequences in that manner and beat you.

If this doesn't get cleared up, eventually, there will be two totally different flying styles that will be completely contradicting each other. You'll have to ask judges what their interpretation of the loop geometry is before your flight. What do you fly if the judges have contradicting interpretations ?

Don't forget this controversy was sparked in a Judging seminar. Seminar should be a place where the proper way of judging (as per rulebook) is explained. Instead, the fundamentals of what the rulebook says were attacked by very prominent IMAC members...


P.

[Shawn Berkheimer]

	Quote: Originally Posted by paffy
	Because there are limitations of human judging introducing large errors already, the last thing you need is two totally opposite camps applying different set of rules on top of it ! You can't excuse one judge showing you a 25° line saying "this is what I want you to present your 45° lines like" and other judge saying "you have to fly true 45, no matter what". P.

Paul, you are 100% correct. This is why you must judge figures as you see them and not as you think you should see them. lets see if I can do a better job of illistrating what I am trying to say.

Senario 1. Your judging basic, pilot performes what looks like a perfectly round loop at center. You and I know that for the loop to appear round it really has to be taller than it is wide however you must judge it as it looked.

Senario 2. At the right side of the box pilot must do a 45 degree upline, 2 of 4, opposite neg snap. The line lookes 45 degrees but we know in reality it must be closer to 60 degrees because it is at the end of the box. Again it has to be judged as it looked

Senario 3. You are watching an opponents flight and see figures with multiple deductions yet when the score sheets come out of the trailer you see he has scored well on them. What gives? From where you were standing, you had a different perspective on the airplane than the judges.

This is where my statement about " if it looks right then it is right " comes from. IMO you need to fly the figures in such a manner that they ' LOOK " correct to the judges. This really has nothing to do with poor quality judging but does illistarte that human eyes don't always see what we would like them to.

Shawn

[paffy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Shawn Berkheimer
	Paul, you are 100% correct. This is why you must judge figures as you see them and not as you think you should see them. lets see if I can do a better job of illistrating what I am trying to say. Senario 1. Your judging basic, pilot performes what looks like a perfectly round loop at center. You and I know that for the loop to appear round it really has to be taller than it is wide however you must judge it as it looked. Senario 2. At the right side of the box pilot must do a 45 degree upline, 2 of 4, opposite neg snap. The line lookes 45 degrees but we know in reality it must be closer to 60 degrees because it is at the end of the box. Again it has to be judged as it looked Senario 3. You are watching an opponents flight and see figures with multiple deductions yet when the score sheets come out of the trailer you see he has scored well on them. What gives? From where you were standing, you had a different perspective on the airplane than the judges. This is where my statement about " if it looks right then it is right " comes from. IMO you need to fly the figures in such a manner that they ' LOOK " correct to the judges. This really has nothing to do with poor quality judging but does illistarte that human eyes don't always see what we would like them to. Shawn

I understand your point of view and I'm totally against it. So is the rule book and it has been that way since forever.

The judging seminars with Ray Rose I've been to were done as per rulebook. Everybody in NE seemed to be on the same page (except for Pete, but he moved out).

And that line that looked like 45 was in reality 30, not 60. It's a totally subjective how people perceive it. The "that looks about right" line is a mix of true line and projected skewed line. How will you define this in the rules ?

Simply folding a sheet of paper to get 45 degree angle and moving it to the side will show you TRUE 45 line. There's no PhD. required. Nothing is open to subjective interpretation that way.

P.

[sTACYLLOYD]

THE REAL POINT OF IMAC IS TO JUST GO OUT HAVE FUN AND LEARN NEW THINGS AND HANG OUT WITH GREAT PEOPLE

[Judge]

	Quote: Originally Posted by paffy
	Don't forget this controversy was sparked in a Judging seminar. Seminar should be a place where the proper way of judging (as per rulebook) is explained. Instead, the fundamentals of what the rulebook says were attacked by very prominent IMAC members... P.

Sadly this is the case. Even now I usually grab the book and refresh my memory on what it says before saying anything. It is too easy to "mis-remember" something. And these are some very experienced folks. Given that, how can we expect the "average" judge out there to be up to speed on every nuance. ?

This is why I think we need to get this taken care of and move to a consistent set of criteria. For us, in IMAC, I feel that means showing the judges what they are seeing when they look at the Aresti.