"Clearest Presentation" or "Proper Gemotery" which to judge by.

[paffy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Boulder
	I was going to just read and giggle at this thread, but I have an observation. I could be wrong, but it seems to me a "true" vertical line will appear vertical no matter which end of the box it is, unless, of course, you are flying so far out that the curvature of the earth comes into play.

True vertical line will appear to be "falling away" from you as an observer on the ground. That's why inexperienced pilots always lean vertical lines towards themselves.

P.

[Boulder]

	Quote: Originally Posted by paffy
	True vertical line will appear to be "falling away" from you as an observer on the ground. That's why inexperienced pilots always lean vertical lines towards themselves. P.

Really? I hadn't noticed that during my Pattern sequences.

[paffy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Boulder
	Really? I hadn't noticed that during my Pattern sequences.

When is the last time you've seen someone flop a hammerhead "away" from themselves ?

90% of the time I've judged, it flops toward the pilot....

P.

[sweetpea]

You haven't seen my hammerheads then....

[Judge]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Shawn Berkheimer
	I guess that is new for '07? I suppose it's time for a refresher. Shawn

It was one of the tweaks for 07-08.

[Boulder]

	Quote: Originally Posted by paffy
	When is the last time you've seen someone flop a hammerhead "away" from themselves ? 90% of the time I've judged, it flops toward the pilot.... P.

I guess now that I think about it, you're right. I have flopped both directions in the past, however, I knew I was off line halfway through the upline.

[as722]

	Quote: Originally Posted by paffy
	When is the last time you've seen someone flop a hammerhead "away" from themselves ? 90% of the time I've judged, it flops toward the pilot.... P.

\
Last year when you flopped the hammer by flying in to the sun at centreville. LOL


Albert

[paffy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by as722
	\ Last year when you flopped the hammer by flying in to the sun at centreville. LOL Albert

Yeah - but nobody could tell which way it went. All I know is that when the plane showed up, it was 90 degrees off

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Boulder
	Really? I hadn't noticed that during my Pattern sequences.

Ahem. . your plane is too small. . . .

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by paffy
	Since the rules currently don't mention anything about "clearest Presentation", this discussion should be a moot point. The rules say "proper geometry" and "smoothness". Nothing about "presentation" The only thing that might be open to different interpretations is the "loop must appear round" gotcha... But even if you interpret that as a need to correct for judges visual distortion, it only applies to full loops, not partial loops. So if you get to fly teardrop with 7/8 loop in it on center, it has to be proper geometry. If you add the additional 1/8 arc, you might start claiming that all of a sudden, it has to be flown totally different and give the "appearance" of a loop instead of being an actual loop. P. P.

Well, Paul, sometimes (like with Weathervaning) you have to address non-pertinent things in order to reinforce reality.

If you re-examine section 8.7.1, concerning half loops (as in immelmans, split-s's cubans, humpties, etc)the first line says "must be of a constant radius and wind-corrected to appear as a perfect half circle (see full loop discussion below). Again . ."appear" appears in the rule. Whether this refers to the actual curvature of the loop or it's vertical track and axis is not stated, nor clear. What is clear, however, is that you must fly the looping segment to make it appear to be perfectly round. Again . ."appear".

Personally, I have no problem following the restrictions and language of these rules, because I know what the rules mean, and how to interpret the planes flight path considering it's position relative to me. But a novice, either flyer or judge, would have a difficult time getting a clear definition and guideline from some of the language in the F&JG. As such, ambiguous terminology, such as "appear" should be done away with, and a focus made to better train and instruct everyone in IMAC.

Instead of "dumbing down" the rules (thanks Paul for that terminology. . listening to Rush Limbaugh again?? ) we should be striving to improve everyones ability as both pilots and judges.

But before that, we need an F&JG that is devoid of ambiguities, explains every aspect of the maneuvers thoroughly and concisely, and gives examples of what NOT to do, and how to detect the most common mistakes. Changing the language to reflect "appearance" over "Geomerty" <sic> will never solve the problem, it will only disguise it. And if that is what people keep trying to force down our throats, there will probably be a lot of problems from it.

[paffy]

Comments welcome on the attached ....

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by paffy
	When is the last time you've seen someone flop a hammerhead "away" from themselves ? 90% of the time I've judged, it flops toward the pilot.... P.

And here all this time I thought it was because of all the rudder-elevator mix I had dialed into the transmitter. . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

[paffy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by KrisW
	Well, Paul, sometimes (like with Weathervaning) you have to address non-pertinent things in order to reinforce reality. If you re-examine section 8.7.1, concerning half loops (as in immelmans, split-s's cubans, humpties, etc)the first line says "must be of a constant radius and wind-corrected to appear as a perfect half circle (see full loop discussion below). Again . ."appear" appears in the rule.

If you really want to get into it based on current rulebook - just half loops. So full loops and half loops must "appear" and 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 5/8, 3/4 and 7/8 must "be" round

What a mess.... somehow I feel the original author is rolling his eyes over right now...

P.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by paffy
	Comment welcome on the attached ....

1) typo
2) Need to add "shgallower when going towrd center
3) YES!!!. . I had an ****** ! ! !
4) very good
5) perfectly round. . excuse me a I need a cigarette
6) Deviation for angle. . nice. . .
7) Perfectly round. . I need another cigarette. . . .
8) Replace image. . very good

Okay. .I need a shower. . . . . and a beer. . after that I'm just drained.

Actually, Paul, you beat me to it. . i was gonna go throught he entire guide tomorrow and make notes for language changes.

Then I was gonna video it. . .

in rule 6.6 of the opening section you need to change it to mandatory tech inspection of within 5% of scale .. .

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by paffy
	If you really want to get into it based on current rulebook - just half loops. So full loops and half loops must "appear" and 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 5/8, 3/4 and 7/8 must "be" round What a mess.... somehow I feel the original author is rolling his eyes over right now... P.

you could always add in "any partial looping segment over 1/8 loop and less than a full loop" Or "any looping segment less than a full loop".. Heck just do away with it entirely and make "All loops or partial loops" in the Loops sub-section.