H9's Sundowner

[Sparky69]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Jkoch713
	I must say that SD is really neat to hear what you have done with it.... I don't think that the EVo35gt or anything else (exept a nitro moki) could even come close to your setup...... THe 35gt is a HOG, and a slow one at that..... Making the limit to only 35cc for the sundowner, especially with the engines available in gas, is a joke..... IF you want the 35gt to compete with the others, it should have been alowed to run a full length pipe, to wake it up.... to make a strait line across the board 35cc max (for nitro and gas and 4-strokes) just doesn't add up! Then you have to regulate with size related props and all that mess....... I am not at all griping to those that have this set up, I just wish that USRA would have thought about this 2008 rules that have been not released..... pitty really.... NOw someone has to make a 35cc gas engine that is as light as the 26cc!.. Justin

Justin,
As a former board member and one of the early SD race plane pilots I can tell you that the board spent considerable time coming up with the SD rules. I have flown the airplane extensively with a Flight data recorder and probably know as much or more than anybody about how this airplane flys with the Evo 35 and Moki 210 I suggest you reread some of the comments in the previous 13 pages before you rush to judgement.
As they say, "walk a mile in my shoes before you critisize"
Do you even have a SD?

I challenge you to come out and race with us. If you don't have a plane come to a race anyway and you will see a lot more clearely what we are all about I'm sure you will come away with another perspective, the BoD is made up of experienced racers who have been down many the roads before that have lead to dead ends. They are trying to balance a lot of balls in the air and keep most people happy.
Ultimate speed isn't what we are looking for. I am pretty sure that I could out race the BME 50 powered SD race plane with a Moki 210 because of the turns required.

I haven't tested it but due to the lighter weight I think a Saito 1.80 would be very competative as well. Any one have a Saito 1.80 that I can borrow for about 10 flights to test?
Sparky
former USRA VP

[CRG]

Justin,

As a current USRA board member I am disappointed with some of your comments. The rules may not be perfect but they're an excellent start. Ken McSpadden, a very experienced racer, formulated the intial rules for the two 2007 Sundowner events. The current board has modified them as they see fit to better utilise the Sundowner as a tool for bringing some new blood to the USRA scene.

- the EVO35GT is not intended to come anywhere near close to mfuess's BME setup. So no failing there.

-if you feel the 35cc limit is a joke, that's your choice. We didn't intend it to be amusing. What would you prefer? 50cc? 100cc? Give me a break.
The intent behind the 35cc rule is to include a multitude of engines that modelers ALREADY have installed and are flying in their Sundowners, or are likely to want to purchase for this and other models. Just like you, others feel that the EVO35 is not something they want to purchase just so they can race, and don't have other models they would use it in.

-the only engine that is regulated with a specific prop is the Moki 2.10.

-if you're not griping, please don't start. This parade hasn't even started and it's already getting rained on.

-why does somebody 'have' to make a 35cc engine that weighs the same as the 26? I don't get it.

So at the end of the day, here's what has happened. The many HUNDREDS of modelers who own Sundowners with 35cc or smaller engines (99%) now have a class where they can come race them in an organised fashion. Did we promise them every engine can win? No. Will they learn about racing and have a ton of fun? Yes. Some of them will continue to race their model as it is, others will make changes to go faster, others will move up, some will move on. All to be expected. The USRA is a relatively small Special Interest Group, those involved are trying to further it's growth and success by introducing new people to it, and letting them see how enjoyable racing can be.

Craig.

	Quote: Originally Posted by Jkoch713
	I must say that SD is really neat to hear what you have done with it.... I don't think that the EVo35gt or anything else (exept a nitro moki) could even come close to your setup...... THe 35gt is a HOG, and a slow one at that..... Making the limit to only 35cc for the sundowner, especially with the engines available in gas, is a joke..... IF you want the 35gt to compete with the others, it should have been alowed to run a full length pipe, to wake it up.... to make a strait line across the board 35cc max (for nitro and gas and 4-strokes) just doesn't add up! Then you have to regulate with size related props and all that mess....... I am not at all griping to those that have this set up, I just wish that USRA would have thought about this 2008 rules that have been not released..... pitty really.... NOw someone has to make a 35cc gas engine that is as light as the 26cc!.. Justin

[mfuess]

I totally agree with Justin & Mike. The SD class isn't intended for all-out speed. It's an economical way to introduce people to pylon racing.

[Jkoch713]

WHat I really am getting at is the weight of the 35gt....
It sounds like this plane is a joy to fly......Especially when it is kept light...

I sometimes say things I regret......
I would LOVE to come and race with you guys..... I love the sport..
It is wonderfull to have the class engine packaged opened up!!! It will
surly get more people the oportunity to try racing!!!

If I could place a light wieght engine that was a 40cc gas engine in it, I would
be down there sporting the race very quickly... I would be in line tommorow picking up the plane to race...

If it is a steping stone to other classes, why not have a engine that can be used in OTHER airframes????/ I push for gas engines...... The 35gt is not a engine I would want to try and find a airframe for, after I pulled it out of the Sundowner....

Really my only gripe is that the gas engine limit......Here is why..................
You can not compare the 35gt to the Moki/Mark 2.10 in power!
The moki is like a 50cc gas engine... Yes the limit was put on the moki props.....
but why not open up the gas engines 5-more cc's?

IT opens up a huge relp of egnine oportunities.....
And from what I am hearing, will not make such a big difference in TOP speed,
But one of Handling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am pushing for specifically the ZDZ40ccF3A engine...... It would fit within the cowl..... and handle the way this plane was designed to ...

You can also place this engine in many many dif. airframes.....
So when you want to move up in class, you don't feel like you have just be put through the wringer by wasting it on a engine that hasn't much use anywhere else...
If it is too fast, then place a limit on the prop.....
The engine isn't much more than the 35gt, and would pay back by being able to use elswere if so wished.............
Check out the pict ure of the comparison between the zdz40f3a and the OS 1.20ax...... not that much bigger or heavier...

I am sorry If I am wasting others time on this....
I will not mention anything else about it.....

Justin

[CRG]

Justin,

You're not wasting anybody's time, we don't have to come here and read what you write...

I can't say it'll never happen, but the 40cc thing won't happen anytime soon. 40cc really wouldn't open the door to too many more engines. The ZDZ 40 is not a benchmark type of engine like the Saito 1.80, it's not like there are dozens of Sundowners out there with them installed already.

The 35cc limit will work fine for the intent of the class. If it doesn't go as hoped I think it'll be for some other reason.

Craig.

[Jkoch713]

I am not sure what USRA is intent on or what it's goals are..
being you are on the board, you know more than I do....

The mistake I see is that USRA looks at the SD class and sees it as a steping stone.
That is great, but it has the potential to be a steady garentee of entrance fee's..
Why should one be forced to move out of the class? Is the fear that it will become too dominated by one person? That no one else will try because it is too competetive? It is this general attitude that makes one feel that the Sundowner class is really a go out and spend over 1000$ on a race plane.... race it and then throw it away... and be forced to spend thousands to enter a class that they have NO fimiliarity, or any knowledge about..

Why not have different classes if it came to this?
A+expert
B=advanced
c=Beginer
Or split them up by engine choices....

I think that if you look at the different rc events.... Like spec classes, they are some of the most popular entered because the guesswork is taken out of the equation and they know that it will be fair and fun....

Yes, guys may say that" I want to move up to something else ect"
It may be due to the pressure from the rules more than anything else....

If you go to a 1/10 th truck stock motor electric race on a national level it is every bit prestigious of a win when capared to all but the 1/8th on road nationals...

I have not been to a race so I just as well am wasting my breath...

[CRG]

Yes it might be considered a stepping stone, but I don't think it's a mistake. Many sports have 'entry level' type classes. If all we wanted was entry fees we could introduce all manner of classes that would be affordable and desirable to the average modeler.

Fair, fun, no guesswork- again you need to look at the F1GT class. Spec motors, fuel, props.

People will get 'forced' out of the class because this isn't the Sundowner Racing League. We're not making people spend a bunch of money on anything they don't want to. And those have Sundowners already who may not have thought about racing them now have something they can try with their model. And you know what they'll gain from it? The very familiarity and knowledge that will help them move to another class if they want to.

The USRA is about giant scale racing. The Sundowner may be IMAA legal but it's hardly giant. The fact that is scale makes it more attractive than the Dominator.

Craig.

	Quote: Originally Posted by Jkoch713
	I am not sure what USRA is intent on or what it's goals are.. being you are on the board, you know more than I do.... The mistake I see is that USRA looks at the SD class and sees it as a steping stone. That is great, but it has the potential to be a steady garentee of entrance fee's.. Why should one be forced to move out of the class? Is the fear that it will become too dominated by one person? That no one else will try because it is too competetive? It is this general attitude that makes one feel that the Sundowner class is really a go out and spend over 1000$ on a race plane.... race it and then throw it away... and be forced to spend thousands to enter a class that they have NO fimiliarity, or any knowledge about.. Why not have different classes if it came to this? A+expert B=advanced c=Beginer Or split them up by engine choices.... I think that if you look at the different rc events.... Like spec classes, they are some of the most popular entered because the guesswork is taken out of the equation and they know that it will be fair and fun.... Yes, guys may say that" I want to move up to something else ect" It may be due to the pressure from the rules more than anything else.... If you go to a 1/10 th truck stock motor electric race on a national level it is every bit prestigious of a win when capared to all but the 1/8th on road nationals... I have not been to a race so I just as well am wasting my breath...

[Leseirf]

As a newbie with barely a season under my belt, I can't imagine anyone wanting to stay in the Sundowner class after seeing the big planes race. I'll bet after one or two races you'll be ready to beg, borrow or steal whatever is necessary to get yourself into at least an F1-GT airplane. I know I was!

And the Sundowner I have isn't wasted money. We can't fly the larger planes at our local club field so I'll use it to sharpen my skills without having to drive for an hour.

Mike

[Jkoch713]

	Quote: Originally Posted by CRG
	Fair, fun, no guesswork- again you need to look at the F1GT class. Spec motors, fuel, props. The USRA is about giant scale racing. The Sundowner may be IMAA legal but it's hardly giant. Craig.

I guess that pretty myuch sums it up then....

How much is involed to get into the f1GT class?

I don't have time to scratch build one of those.....
3-4 thousand to have someone build it for me??? (I am talking about a class winner) For 3-races a year??? These are purpose built planes..... Not sport planes.....
I am not running to go get it? Thas is a big investment for such a short time of use....

I think that I have to understand the whole racing moto! "If you can't afford to drive you car off a cliff and not flinch about it, than you shouldn't be racing it"

I would rather build a giant Seafury, with retracts that I could still fly when I am not racing.....I believe that would be in the Unlimited class?

I appreciate all the info that you have shared about the class.....
THis really gives me the information that I was looking for....

Justin

[rcign]

Almost all the F1GT planes fly like big sport planes, no bad habits...We took our Kelly F1GT to a sport field in Chino Valley and flew it in wind that had the other sport flyers sitting and watching...Loops, rolls, knife edge, hammerheads, etc...It was a big hit with the locals....It took 3rd in Silver in it's first race in about 15 years. (It's the second Kelly ever built, still going strong) ..It would have been first but for a start cut...It was the pilot's first organized pylon race with a new caller....
You just need to watch the landing speed, they glide and glide and glide.......

[Jkoch713]

Nice to hear.....

That landing thing,,,, that isn't optional is it?

How much do you have in on the kelly?

Justin

[rcign]

Used Kelly, $300...Used GT80, $500.......

[Sparky69]

Justin,
Oh and by the way Mikes comments are from the, "USRA 2007 Rookie of the Year". He is ready to move on and as much as I hate top admit it, even I get some needed practice flying the Sundowner doing all the testing of the various props and engines at my local club field. Flying with a purpose is always prefered to boreing holes in the sky, I just got done burning a 6-7000 mile hole in the sky burning about 34,000 gallons of jet fuel. Off to my own bed
Sparky

[CRG]

Justin,

I just sold my used GR7 for $1500. Was turnkey less motor, so you could have had a Gold airplane for $2K.

A new GR7 out of the molds is $2500. Other models are cheaper, but more building. There are a few foam and glass kits around the $1000-1200 mark I believe.

Craig.

	Quote: Originally Posted by Jkoch713
	Nice to hear..... That landing thing,,,, that isn't optional is it? How much do you have in on the kelly? Justin

[Jkoch713]

I saw a all composite Sundowner in the f1gt for sale for 4000$ or B/O...(I beleieve this was the F1 GT clas..\

Thanks for info....

Jusitin