asian ingenuity

[rhb]

With the introduction of at least two clones of the DA-50 on the scene, and several other multicylinder semiclones of American and Euro engines, when will it be inevitible for DA et al, to manufacture offshore? The price advantage of Chinese goods broadens the market base, opening up a potential errosion of value for the pricier limited production engines. The diluting of the market will only serve to force the issue I think. The click flyers and imacc wannabe's will always demand the best money can buy, but in a volitile market where demand is often linked to price, the majority will opt for cheaper, especially if the products are satisfactory. The DY-50 seems to have gained wide aceptence.
comments?

[SmoothFlying]

Just remember that folks have to lose jobs when companies try and save a buck. Put yourself in the shoes of those who lost there jobs to offshoring. Just think if you had a family and you are the main bread winner and you lost your job because your company went offshoring to save a buck. No I havent experienced that but working in a bank, I see it all the time. Its sad. Keep everything in the US. I try to not buy products from companies who offshore. Sometimes I have to but I try my hardest not to.

[Mark Davis]

Hmm, first post is a controversial topic... You wouldn't be a rep for one of the Chinese recycled beer-can motors now would you???

You can buy all the Chinese motors you want, and I'm sure others will follow suit... That is until they have a bad experience and learn their lesson... Personally, I would rather have piece of mind by knowing that I've purchased a proven, time-tested, reliable product from a 1st world country...

[rhb]

It was more a question of pure economics really.
I know and appreciate Carden and there products, Owned an old style (pre slab side) Extra 300S, sweet plane. but already chinese and and other asian airframes are widely accepted and flown to championships, it seems that the engine technology will cetainly follow.

No I don't represent any asian interests, but I live on the Pacific rim, travel in asia frequently. Most continental U.S. citizens seem to have a rather myopic view of the world and often wear their bigotry on their shirt sleeve. So maybe controversial, but think about this, what greedy american entrapeneur took the DA 50 to China? Asian quality is constantly improving, a matter of component quality and spec control mostly.
The depth of Asian cloning, American and European outsourcing is vastly underestimated in the U.S.
Anyway, I thought it was an interesting and thought provoking post. and not insulting to anyone.

Here is a question...
Is the market so small and loyal to DA, 3W etc. that a lower price by nearly 1/2, will not errode the demand for the higher priced original.

Just so you know, I never yet have owned a chinese motor, but will soon try one. I have owned an flown 3W 80/ 120/ and toc 150. a DA 100, various Brisons, Kings, and ZDZ's.

[ShortBus]

	Quote: Originally Posted by rhb
	Here is a question... Is the market so small and loyal to DA, 3W etc. that a lower price by nearly 1/2, will not errode the demand for the higher priced original.

I don't buy crap. I most certainly don't buy clones of engines made in china.

[Ion01]

This is a huge issue when it comes to casting that I have personally had to deal with in my company. It is considerably cheaper to have castings made in china and they will take any business they can get, however, you get what you pay for. When I started my current job we had almost all of our casting made in china, much like everyone else. However, the quality is horrible and getting any kind of cooperation as a result of such issues is next to impossible. If you have something patiented made over there they will copy and there are no legal ramifications for anything they chose to do or not to do. They simply break all the rules. Anyways, my frustrations aside, there appears to be, at least in my industry, a back lash to having things made over seas as a result of all of this. We currently only have one item made in china which will be made elsewhere in a couple of months and there are many others doing the same. Will the copies mentioned above hurt DA? Probably? Will the copies disappear eventually? Probably not. But in the end people will realize they are only hurting themselves and are not actually saving money by getting the copy and, in the very slight off chance that the copy is a good quality engine, it should only help to improve DA's design through competition.

[WangoTango]

As in past posts, I say there is too much Baby Boomer in me........ I realize DA is American-made and 3W is German technology. These are the benchmarks we modelers have come to rely on. I'd buy a DA in a heartbeat and my 3W's have replaced my penchant for Sachs Dolmar products. (Remember 15-20 years ago when a Sachs was the Cadillac motor?) Along come the China-made motors and the modeler that needs to save some bucks will at least try one. I remember the first Honda and Suburu I ever saw. What a pile of junk! Yes, they have come a long way and they are just like McDonalds in a way..... Billions served! I look at them today and see the stylized looks and trim, etc. They have their place in the market but I'll never park one in my driveway! My son just showed me a Chinese motor that comes complete with electronic ignition, muffler, 45cc's, etc. for $199.00.............. Yeah, I could be somewhat tempted. Go back to that first Honda I saw years ago. I remember hearing one of my classmates tell me that it was just under 1800 bucks for that brand new car! My brand new GTO in 1967 was $2955.00. It ran like no Honda ever would and I enjoyed that "muscle car" status. I guess these motors will gain acceptance in time. It's just going to be hard gaining mine just yet. I'll stick with the "Cadillac" motors on the market for now.........
WT

[rhb]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Ion01
	This is a huge issue when it comes to casting that I have personally had to deal with in my company. It is considerably cheaper to have castings made in china and they will take any business they can get, however, you get what you pay for. When I started my current job we had almost all of our casting made in china, much like everyone else. Will the copies mentioned above hurt DA? Probably? Will the copies disappear eventually? Probably not. But in the end people will realize they are only hurting themselves and are not actually saving money by getting the copy and, in the very slight off chance that the copy is a good quality engine, it should only help to improve DA's design through competition.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Yes I agree with your assessment, When we first imported from China, ther was a 15% throw away factor. With that taken into consideration it was still cheaper to export raw materials to asia have them manufactured and shipped back here. Copyright infringement is not rampant, it is the defacto way bussiness is done in Asia, I say Asia, because It is not limited to China. That said, the reality exists, wont likely change, and the blame, if someone wants to asess such, rests with all of us.
I should be bitter, I went out of bussiness due to pressures from imported goods, went to work for a major industry manufacturer, only to see them go belly up with their efforts to keep manufacturing operations in the U.S.
Speaking of castings. The super light wight investment castings on the ZDZ engines was very much an issue at one point. So I was playing devils advocate with my post.
The unfortunate truth is that Americans complain about imports on one hand and demand and seek out the cheapest prices on the other. The asians are more than happy to comply.

I saw one post here about a guy with a new 40% scale aerobatic plane wanting to know if he could save money by using half the recomended servos!

[dubd]

I am all for increased competition in the marketplace as long we get quality products. However, I am not a supporter of any stealing of intellectual property. China has a huge problem with IP stealing in all industries. If a Chinese manufacturer is to produce a comparable engine to DA and 3W then I want to see innovation in the product rather than a clone. I will pay more for a product if the company innovates rather than copies.

rhb, Why is it that ONLY "click flyers and imac wannabes" will demand the best that money can buy? Please define "click flyers and imac wannabes" while you're at it. You're basically saying that non click flyers and the top imac pilots will opt for cheaper Chinese made products. I think the topic of Chinese made engines is a good one, but your logic is completely flawed.

[rhb]

	Quote: Originally Posted by dubd
	rhb, Why is it that ONLY "click flyers and imac wannabes" will demand the best that money can buy? Please define "click flyers and imac wannabes" while you're at it. You're basically saying that non click flyers and the top imac pilots will opt for cheaper Chinese made products. I think the topic of Chinese made engines is a good one, but your logic is completely flawed.

Well, I did not say "ONLY" click flyers and Imacc wannab's, you said that.
Certainly there are many pilots who are willing to pay for proven quality with, and probably most importantly, good support after purchase. The fear many have is that when you buy an import from asia, you buy at the risk of getting a lemon, with no hope of support. I find it interesting, that in the case of the DL, we now have a loyal following of the U.S. importer, who ironically disses the "hong Kong shops" who sell the exact same product. He offers support parts, and service. Now he is regarded by some as the legitimate importer, ( I have no opinion whether he is isn't or isn't), and has a growing "loyal" following. It's hypocritical to say the least.
But it seems if an American distributes an supports an asian product, it gives it a certain amount of legitimacy in some circles.

What is a click flyer? A quick way of saying those who only fly DA, or those who only fly 3W modellmotoren products. Frankly there is little difference in quality and performance in any motor at a given pricepoint. and that to me is the key concept. With the advent of the cheaper import motors, acess to larger planes has opened up to a much larger market. DA and 3W might well be cheering, because eventually these flyers new to giant sale may move up the ladder to their product. What DA might lose on the 50 they may eventually gain on sale of 100's and 150's.

Sorry about offending anyone with the IMACC wannabee thing, it was a way of defining a certain kind of pilot who may not compete but whorships everything somenzini (or other) says does or uses. Product placement sells.

Why is no one asking who took the technology to China with the motors? I think asian ingenuity is well established, but I doubt they came up with the idea to clone the DA with out foriegn support. Once the technology is there, then its like pandoras box, the motors turn up everywhere.

[JoeHerbert]

I hate to say it but if you don't like china don't go to walmart any more they are among the top china importers, it's hard to find things anymore that don't come from overseas. I know one thing though if the chineese don't get there act together with all these recalls on toys no one will buy them until US. companies straighten out these issues. what about that company that was using cardboard for the meat in their dishes? and they were serving that to their own people what are they sending here?????

[DKjens]

Hey, why worry, with the path the US dollar is taking, it won't be long before all American produced goods will be the cheapest in the world.

[Kiwi]

Guys,

Hats off to you all for so far keeping this debate civil. Its a super touchy subject and can bring out the patriotism in a lot of well informed and very poorly informed people.

I for one deal a lot with Chinese products in my business and I have no choice if I want to be competitive and survive. I always see the same argument that the Chinaman is stealing your (our) intellectual property but I beg to differ with everyone of you on that fact.

You are in fact exporting your IT through unscrupulous big business looking to maximize the next quarters results. There is no more long term planning or vision in Mega Buck US businesses and monopolies. A CEO can be turfed out on his butt for not feeding the shareholder his greedy expectations every 90 days.

Here is a case in point just to prove I'm not blowing smoke up the wrong hole.

The largest and most profitable heavy equipment manufacturer in the world (Caterpillar) has just started construction on the biggest component rebuild center ever dreamed of. Guys its damned humongous big and it will be feed with mining equipment, marine and support machinery components from all over the world. Of course I don't need to tell you where its being built do I.

Mostly it will take away thousands of US based jobs, with the training, job futures and likely the jobs of a lot of kids in school today who will never be lawyers and computer boffins. But they could and would have been very good technicians if they have the chance. Gone are those opportunities and they WILL NEVER EVER COME BACK HOME once they have gone.

So what am I saying here. If I want to be successful, educate my kids, live a comfortable but hard working life then I need to be faster and smarter and cheaper than Mr Caterpillar who is taking the future of your kids and guys working hard for an honest living completely out of the equation. And what for.??? Doesn't that sound like profit at all cost??

A quick quarterly result to benefit a few at the peril of many. Its dog eat dog and I either swim or sink, so I don't have an option. I just hope the Chinaman keeps it up as they are likely saving my bacon.

Am I condoning what is going on?? No never!!! but what choice do many of us have these days. When you get backed into a corner you either roll over or fight.

Off my soap box guys.

[Highlights]

	Quote: Originally Posted by WangoTango
	As in past posts, I say there is too much Baby Boomer in me........ I realize DA is American-made and 3W is German technology. These are the benchmarks we modelers have come to rely on. I'd buy a DA in a heartbeat and my 3W's have replaced my penchant for Sachs Dolmar products. (Remember 15-20 years ago when a Sachs was the Cadillac motor?) Along come the China-made motors and the modeler that needs to save some bucks will at least try one. I remember the first Honda and Suburu I ever saw. What a pile of junk! Yes, they have come a long way and they are just like McDonalds in a way..... Billions served! I look at them today and see the stylized looks and trim, etc. They have their place in the market but I'll never park one in my driveway! My son just showed me a Chinese motor that comes complete with electronic ignition, muffler, 45cc's, etc. for $199.00.............. Yeah, I could be somewhat tempted. Go back to that first Honda I saw years ago. I remember hearing one of my classmates tell me that it was just under 1800 bucks for that brand new car! My brand new GTO in 1967 was $2955.00. It ran like no Honda ever would and I enjoyed that "muscle car" status. I guess these motors will gain acceptance in time. It's just going to be hard gaining mine just yet. I'll stick with the "Cadillac" motors on the market for now......... WT

I just went all out and bought a $53000.00 Ford FX4 pickup. NO I am not a ford fan. I love this particular truck though. The Hondas and Toyotas out there are tops in my opinion. They are industry leaders in reliability. You cannot argue that. The big North American auto makers are feeling the effect of the imports. I have owned many vehicles from many differant countries. Some of those imports are made right here in Canada. Hell my new ford was built in Ontario. Bottom line is no matter what make and model it is eventually all brands will sucumb to some sort of flaw and you will need to have it fixed. How will they serve their customer? Many feel our local guys will be easier to deal with. Who knows, but that option is up to the customer. As is the original purchase. We all have reasons for the items we choose to purchase. Do what suits you best. As a business owner myself, I will stand strong in what I charge the customer. If the customer wants Less expensive then he will certainly get "cheaper" I charge what I do because I offer a service. One that I feel cannot be "copied" by anyone!

Da will stand strong , and continue to serve it's loyal customer base yet sharpen it's pencil to stay desirable; I am not talking dollars and cents here but more value for the higher price paid. Customers will get an even better product.


Thanks.

Mark

FYI Ford owns: Jaguar, Mazda, Lincoln,Volvo, Land Rover and Mercury. Makes you reconsider alot of ideas doesn't it? BUSINESS

[rhb]

good point on the USD. why most people don't realize the significance of the dollar being in the dumpster is a mystery to me. but that is another topic eh?

If you go to asia, singapore, Hong Kong, Philippines, Taiwan. go to a local dept. store, see all the "US" products that say made in the USA. They obviously aren't, and sell for a fraction of what they do in the U.S. some are cheap rip offs, some look and feel genuine and are probably grey or black market. People in the U.S. mostly have no clue how they are being manipulated by American "manufacturers". Having been in the export import bussiness, I am still amazed by the innocence of most Americans. The Asians play for keeps. their thinking is diffent when it comes to bussiness. There are no rules except, turn a profit. Of course one might argue U.S. big bussiness operates the same way, or why do we now rely so heavily on China for our everyday products.? Cheap labor..., now it comes back to bite us in the butt, and we blame the chinese? Look at your neighbor, as you said in wall mart, sears, etc.

But I would like not to digress so much, what about the question of the specific impact of chinese model engines? The DL, 3MM, et al are only the begining. I have seen some very nice twins in the 100c range out of Asia. They no doubt will eventually reach our shores.