JR-9303 2.4 Field Results

[Edge540 Freak]

So does anybody have any more field reports of this radio? I'm gonna get mine soon, but I just wanted to see how everybody else was liking theirs.

I've never owned a JR radio but how does the programing display compare to Futaba?

[bodywerks]

my understanding of resolution is that it is FAR superior to 2048, but I may be wrong...
I do know that I have a much more "locked in" feel with my DX7 than that of any other radion I have used.
I have the 9303 2.4, and it will be going into my H9 35% 260, with CF pipes, CF wingtube, CF spinner, and CF prop. I plan to mount the satellite rx up in the cockpit, and the main rx on my Power Expander Pro. The rx will be powered through the Power expander via two sets of A123 lithium batteries, no regulators.
I already voided my warranty on my 9303, though, as I was told by Horizon Service reps that this radio could not be converted to stick mode 4 due to no hidden system parameters existing for it (funny, they switched over both of my 9303 72mhz no problem). It can be done mechanically by switching wires, but they said they wouldn't do that for me, so I did it myself. I have full confidence in my conversion as I had to do it to my Dx7 for the same reason (Horizon not wanting to help me) and have over 200 flights on it without issue.

[madmax]

FG Product Perspective is posted. The X9303 2.4 is 2048 only when used with the Spektrum AR9000 and the JR R921 receivers. Nick, get an extra satellite rec. The R921's sat's are fully interchangeable with the AR9000's FYI.

Sweet setup on the H9 BTW, make sure to post some piccys.

[madmax]

BTW, Pinning this topic folks. Keep the discussion alive.

[btomlinson]

My 9303 will be here today... Fed Ex overnite :>)

[bosshoss]

I am testing on these for a friend, we are putting it in a beat-up gasser of mine. I will be using my standard power setup for 50cc class.

Fromeco Super Regulated Reliaswitch, 3 3amp leads into the receiver (2 if only 2 fit), heavy gauge input wire from the batts with Deans conn.

Since the plane is a Yak with a large canopy....we will stick the dongle recvr up into the canopy on a wood stick , so it can look "out". I did this with my AR7000 and DX7 on this bird and it was fine. My knees were knocking , but the plane was fine. LOL.

It will be cool to download the program from my '03 to the 2.4 '03.

[1bwana1]

Yesterday, we tested the system in a 40% Carden Extra. Once again, the transfer of the programming between the 72 MHz 9303 and the new 2.4 X9303 went perfectly. This time the RX was mounted to a Smart-Fly power Expander. I read somewhere that the Smart-Fly power expander line is the only system that has never shown a reboot during testing at Horizon, so this seems the safest way to go. We got a perfect range test at double the recommended distance. When we range test, we always rotate the plane so that we test from all angles. Three of us flew the plane on multiple flights with perfect results. We all agreed that the plane felt "touchy" so we ended up increasing the Expo in the radio and it settled in perfectly. Could this be the result of the higher resolution?

The current setup still only has the main RX and one satellite. The extra satellite RX and data logger have arrived so they will be installed prior to the next test. The connection seems solid but without data, we could be on the edge and not know it. It will be interesting to see the results.

There is another guy flying a DX-7 based system (AR9000) at the field. It is in a 2.6m CompARF Extra. He has the main RX and 2 satellite RX installed, as well as the data logger. He has flown many flights with the system. However, on his last flight, the plane went into lockout for about three seconds. Fortunately, it came back before he crashed, and he was able to land without damage. When the data logger was examined, it showed no dropped frames, fades or any other problem. We assume that this means that the RX re-booted, wiping out the data. I always thought that it took longer than that for a re-boot, but with no other indication of problems, what else could have happened? I guess this means that the data logger is not useful for diagnosing voltage issues. This is a problem, as it seems voltage drops are the most frequent cause of crashes with this system. He is now afraid to fly the plane. He did not have a power expander installed, so I have suggested that he get one.

Given what we have learned so far, I can see the need for a product designed specifically for the Horizon/JR 2.4 systems. It would include the current power expander features, plus a data logger that includes voltage info that persists after a re-boot. It should also include some system that absolutely keeps the voltage above the re-boot limit (assuming the batteries don’t fail).

We will continue to experiment with the system as we escalate it up to the competition planes. We’ll keep this thread updated as we do. In the mean time we are interested in hearing from the rest of you.

[bosshoss]

1Bwana,

I onder if an Eagle Tree together with the data logger would help. Doesn't the ET record voltage on a timeline for each flight?? This might help.

Does the DL have a timeline??

Keep up the science based testing, this is great info, glad you saved the bird.

We are doing a maiden on a H9 260 with the 2.4 '03 tomorrow morning. It should go well.

[GooseF22]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Edge540 Freak
	So does anybody have any more field reports of this radio? I'm gonna get mine soon, but I just wanted to see how everybody else was liking theirs. I've never owned a JR radio but how does the programing display compare to Futaba?

Freak,
Its pretty intuitive, moreso than futuba in my humble opinion. I picked up an old Jr six channel, borrowed a 9303, and bought a DX7, which is identical almost to a JR 7202, it was pretty darn easy. Expo is opposite, and volume max is 150%, offset works a little different. Other than that its a no brainer. I came over from a Futuba super 8, which I just ordered a sptktrum module for, since it has all my smaller models on it, and I dont have to switch everything at the same time $$$. I really had no trouble. All radios have the same basic fuctions. I programmed a 10x not long ago, just had to look up the codes.

[GooseF22]

I would zero in on the voltage reset first. There are alot of questions to ask, but the main one is power delivery. Ask him about his setup, look it over, see if any servos are binding, how many plugs on the batt...etc... nothing new.... Its just that this baby is more sensitive to downspikes. When I set up my suky, I used a futuba ppm just to get things going as waited for the first dx7, and took some voltage readings while bangin the sticks, and I noticed a larger swing in voltage with the 7000. I am assuming that is due to the speed, it can bring the servo to its fullest speed because it can reverse the signal so quickly. So my thinking is that the same system could have a larger downspike. So, the regulators become more critical if you run them, ones that have high capacity, and dont heat. Heat is a killer. So do powerful batteries, and good wiring and double switches. It has to do with the load slope on the motors in the servo. Dick said awhile back plan 1 amp per 100oz for good margin - good for me.

Capacity. most manufactures of electronic components advertise peak power. Use 50% of that for max sustained, and 70% for average power with minor surges, but then look at the plugs. no more than 4 amps per connector. For examply my suky with dual miracle switches is supposed be 10 amps continuous, 20 peak.. thats crap. its about 7-8 maybe 9 amps sustained. I figure anything above that could cause a spike out on the AR receiver series. The problem is that the AR even sees a momentary spike down, you could be in trouble. What we need is a stabilizer circuit with a built in capacitor that can smooth out the millisecond spikes like a shock absorber. any brainiacs?

keep the info comin guys.
g

	Quote: Originally Posted by 1bwana1
	Yesterday, we tested the system in a 40% Carden Extra. Once again, the transfer of the programming between the 72 MHz 9303 and the new 2.4 X9303 went perfectly. This time the RX was mounted to a Smart-Fly power Expander. I read somewhere that the Smart-Fly power expander line is the only system that has never shown a reboot during testing at Horizon, so this seems the safest way to go. We got a perfect range test at double the recommended distance. When we range test, we always rotate the plane so that we test from all angles. Three of us flew the plane on multiple flights with perfect results. We all agreed that the plane felt "touchy" so we ended up increasing the Expo in the radio and it settled in perfectly. Could this be the result of the higher resolution? The current setup still only has the main RX and one satellite. The extra satellite RX and data logger have arrived so they will be installed prior to the next test. The connection seems solid but without data, we could be on the edge and not know it. It will be interesting to see the results. There is another guy flying a DX-7 based system (AR9000) at the field. It is in a 2.6m CompARF Extra. He has the main RX and 2 satellite RX installed, as well as the data logger. He has flown many flights with the system. However, on his last flight, the plane went into lockout for about three seconds. Fortunately, it came back before he crashed, and he was able to land without damage. When the data logger was examined, it showed no dropped frames, fades or any other problem. We assume that this means that the RX re-booted, wiping out the data. I always thought that it took longer than that for a re-boot, but with no other indication of problems, what else could have happened? I guess this means that the data logger is not useful for diagnosing voltage issues. This is a problem, as it seems voltage drops are the most frequent cause of crashes with this system. He is now afraid to fly the plane. He did not have a power expander installed, so I have suggested that he get one. Given what we have learned so far, I can see the need for a product designed specifically for the Horizon/JR 2.4 systems. It would include the current power expander features, plus a data logger that includes voltage info that persists after a re-boot. It should also include some system that absolutely keeps the voltage above the re-boot limit (assuming the batteries don’t fail). We will continue to experiment with the system as we escalate it up to the competition planes. We’ll keep this thread updated as we do. In the mean time we are interested in hearing from the rest of you.

[1bwana1]

Here is the report from today's testing, I am afraid this will get a little long, so please bare with me. We are still flying the 40% Carden Extra, because it is all wood, and we are reluctant to install in the ZN-Line Composite plane as this is a more difficult environment for 2.4. Today we had the additional remote RX bringing the total to 4 receivers. So the current setup is:

40% Carden Extra (all wood) This plane has years of flights on 72 MHZ with no issues
DA-150
30 X 10 Carbon Fiber prop
16 JR 8611 Servos with Match boxes
1 Fromeco 2400 for ignition
2 Fromeco 4800 for RX
3 HD switches
1 Smart-Fly Reg on ignition
2 Smart-Fly Regs on RX
All batteries, Regs, and switches have 16 gauge wires and Deans connectors for good power supply
Smart-Fly Power Expander Sport
R921 2.4 RX with 2 remote receivers
Spektrum Data Logger

The main RX is installed on a raised platform that was built to get the RX up high in the fuse and away from the fuel, tank, motor, wires and other things that might interfere with it. It sits in the normal spot on the power expander, which is mounted on the left side of the plane. The first satellite RX is mounted on the opposite side of the plane, and orientated 90 degrees to the main RX. The second satellite RX is mounted about 1/2 way between the canopy and tail. It is up high in the turtle deck, and orientated so that it is different from the other two RXs. We could see no way that all 4 RXs in three locations could be shadowed from the TX simultaneously.

For those who have never used the Spektrum Data Logger, it logs fades at each RX location, dropped frames, and holds. Here is how the data is referenced by the logger.

A = RX-1 in the main RX body
B = RX-2 in the Main RX body
L = Left remote RX
R = Right remote RX
F = Dropped frames
H = holds


After yesterday's good test we were very interested to get actual numbers from the data logger. We did a range test again, which looked good, and took off. A flight of about 14 minutes, including the IMAC Unlimited sequence was flown. Here is the data from the logger:

A = 255
B = 740
L = 509
R = 520
F = 304
H = 1

We were not sure what to expect, but still, we were not impressed with what these numbers were telling us. There are a lot of fades on all RX's, over 300 dropped frames, and 1 hold. It looked to us like we were on the ragged edge of losing the plane, so we decided not to fly any more until we figured out what these number actually indicate about the robustness of the system, and our installation. We realized that we had not re-set the RX between the range test (with the power reducing button pressed), and the flight. It seemed reasonable that there would be fades, dropped frames, and even a hold with the low TX power. So we decided to do more tests.

First we re-set the RX and did our range test again, exactly as before. Here is the data from that:

A = 255
B = 279
L = 275
R = 191
F = 310
H = 5 (much more here this time)

It seemed to us that this could account for almost all of the scary numbers from the first test. We reset the RX and walked the exact range test line again without the range test button pushed so we had full TX power. This time all data values were 0. Very encouraging!

We decided to fly a short 4 minute flight and check the data again. Here are the results:

A= 88
B= 109
L= 96
R= 184
F= 4
H= 0

It still looked like a lot of fades, but because there were so few dropped frames and no holds, we thought it looked like at no time were all RXs blocked at the same time. So we re-set the RX once again, and flew a full 14 minute flight, which included the IMAC Unlimited Sequence once again. Here are the results:

A= 255
B= 796
L= 829
R= 894
F= 132
H= 0

Unexpectedly, the fades were even worse than the first test. There were still a lot of dropped frames, but this time no Holds.

Because we really don't know what kind of numbers indicate a properly working system, we decided in the interest of caution, not to fly with this setup again, until we fully understand what is going on. Now the search begins for information that will allow us to properly interpret this data. We are not giving up on the system, it flew nice. However think about it, without seeing the data from the logger, the range check seemed to go well, and the plane flies great. If this data does indicate that the system is not properly optimized by our installation, we could have very easily lost the plane. There are many out there flying 2.4 without doing this kind of system testing. What are the ramifications of this? Surely, at the very least, people are losing planes unnecessarily. I guess we will know more as our understanding of the system grows.

I would really appreciate comments from anyone with real insight to this data. In the mean time, I am going to forward this report on to JR for their comments. I'll let you know what I learn.

-STEVE-

[1bwana1]

There is one thing that did occur to us. We don't know of anyone who has done this kind of analysis with the standard 72mHZ radio equipment. That might be equally as scary, but who knows?

[walex]

Hello All,
Waiting to get my Seagull Yak in the air, but the weather is starting to change here in Ohio. This is my first time with 2.4. If anyone has any pointers about my setup, please let me know. Thanks.

[Tailwind]

Hi Steve,
I have the Spektrum module in my 40% Carden, set-up is almost the same as yours, I have never seen over 150 on each ant, or 23 on fades, and 0 on holds. After most flights I show 0 fades and @50 on each ant. This is on 15 min flights practicing IMAC, and I have fown it out pretty far. I would move the receiver and antenae's around and see if it gets better...My receiver is on the left side of the fues behind the aft wing bolt. One ant is on the lower cross members in the center of fues, and one is up on motorbox right side by fuel tank.

Dom

[1bwana1]

Walex,
Judging by your pictures, the positions of your main RX and satellite is similar to my friends Carden. If I were you, I'd get the data logger to test as we are. From the feedback we are getting our installation is not working properly.