How Dominant Has 2.4 become?

[1bwana1]

This is not intended to be a thread on whether the 2.4 MHz systems are technically better than the 72MHz systems. There are plenty of other threads for that. I have been noticing that when I visit hobby shops, more and more of them are only stocking 2.4 MHZ systems. I also received an interesting email advertisement this evening. Advantage Hobby, a large on line retailer located in the heart of the hobby industry, Champaign, IL, has a special on radios.

Here is what they are offering. If you want a JR-9303 2.4 system you must basically pay MAP $629.99 (unless you are a club member $610.99), and go on back order. If you are willing to buy the same JR-9303 package on 72 MHz you pay the same price, get it shipped immediately, and they will give you free the Spektrum 2.4 MHz module for the TX and a free RX. This is worth $299.99 on their website if bought separately.

This is basically saying, they are willing to sell 72 MHZ systems for 1/2 price because they are in stock, and sitting. The 2.4 MHZ systems are in such demand that they can't build them fast enough. In fact, there radio sales are being limited by the number of 2.4 MHz system they can get allocated.

I have spoken to a friend of mine who owns a local hobby shop and he tells me that they can only sell the 72 MHz radios to the new guys in the hobby. This will have some implications for us going forward. It seems to me that if the experienced guys are going to 2.4 MHz at the rate it appears, and only the inexperienced guys are being sold the 72 MHZ radios, the risk to those staying on 72 MHz getting shot down increases. This kind of flies in the face of those that say, "the more people who switch, the safer I am on 72 MHz".

I know at my local electric field I don't pay any attention to the frequency board, who is on it, or new faces at the field, since I switched my small planes to 2.4 MHz about a year ago. I still fly my 35% planes on 72MHz, but I fly at a field where we all know each other well, usually fly only one plane in the air at a time, and monitor any new faces closely. Still, about half the guys are already on 2.4 MHZ, and I may be soon as well, I got my 9303 2.4 MHz over the holidays.

As 72 MHZ continues to migrate down in cost, as all obsolete (market driven, not technical obsolescence) technologies do, it will become more and more the band of cheap ready to fly models, piloted by untrained people. It will be a very risky place to be. Just some thoughts, and observations. Your thoughts?

[rede2fly]

	Quote: Originally Posted by 1bwana1
	I have spoken to a friend of mine who owns a local hobby shop and he tells me that they can only sell the 72 MHz radios to the new guys in the hobby. This will have some implications for us going forward. It seems to me that if the experienced guys are going to 2.4 MHz at the rate it appears, and only the inexperienced guys are being sold the 72 MHZ radios, the risk to those staying on 72 MHz getting shot down increases. This kind of flies in the face of those that say, "the more people who switch, the safer I am on 72 MHz". Your thoughts?

my thoughts are about the same as yours except this statement. it is totaly incorrect. if it is still being made anyone who wants to buy one can. they are still listed on horizon, and i know for fact they dont ask you if you are new or not.there is no way horizon would ever tell the retailers that they could only sell certain items to either new or older flying people. if this were the case, i for 1 would think it would be just the opposite and not allow the (newer people to buy the older version radios) 72mhz. this guy is feeding someone a line my thoughts

[Pale Rider]

I think what he was saying is that only newbies are WILLING to buy 72mhz radios. Not that they are being forced to sell them to newbies. In other words, any seasoned pilots are buying 2.4 and nt 72. At least thats how I interpreted it.

[micp]

About 18-20 months ago I went on a hiatus from the hobby for business school. When I had a moment or two I would check the web and see how things are going in the hobby but for the most part I was out of touch for a while. When I returned in late November I was amazed at how much 2.4 had become a dominate platform. Upon my return to the hobby I sold my 72 mhz 9303 and bought a 2.4 9303 because it is clear that 2.4 is here to stay and one of the last memories I have before business school was a guy with a brand new Aeroworks getting shot down due to his error grabbing the wrong frequency pin.

Looking at the incentives availible for those who buy the 72 mhz 9303 it is clear in my mind that 2.4 is dominant, perhaps even more than we can see. JR, Futaba and the others are clearly looking at the sales data and I will be shocked if they are developing any radio system that is not 2.4 . I know the 12x will be availible in both but I will bet everything below the 12x will be only 2.4 within 18 months. I could be wrong but when you see incentives like we are seeing that means that the product is on the back side of the adpotion curve and a new product is dominating. Sorry for the business stuff but I wanted to make sure the 20 months wasn't a loss to my hobby:-)

[sal98]

The way I see it, why bother with 72mhz when you have an option to get something that works and that is a lot better and safer technicaly.

And I believe 1bwana1 is correct in saying that newbies will be purchasing the 72mhz stuff which know comes installed in a lot of parkflyers and trainers. They will be turning on radios without checking (as this just happen to me recently) and they will be shooting people down unknowingly. I do not have my JR9303 as of yet, but as soon as I can save up my nickels and dimes I will be headed right to the hobby shop.

[JAMPILOT]

I believe what 1bwana1 and the others are saying is correct. The guys just getting into the hobby are purchasing 72 MHZ radios because that is what the LHS's have in stock and these guys want to get into the air asap. Being new to the hobby they have no idea about frequecies. There have been 2 cases of shoot downs at my local field in the last few months. When these individuals were asked, they had no idea about frequency pins. This is partly our faults also for not educating the new people to the hobby, because before 2.4 MHZ came along we were taught to check the frequency boards and not turn your transmitter on if the pin was gone. We are now making sure the message is passed along to everone that flies to check yourself and others before flying. I believe in the near future there will be very few people flying 72MHZ, but until then we need to be careful.

[sweetpea]

	Quote: Originally Posted by 1bwana1
	I have spoken to a friend of mine who owns a local hobby shop and he tells me that they can only sell the 72 MHz radios to the new guys in the hobby. I know at my local electric field I don't pay any attention to the frequency board, who is on it, or new faces at the field, since I switched my small planes to 2.4 MHz about a year ago. I still fly my 35% planes on 72MHz, but I fly at a field where we all know each other well, usually fly only one plane in the air at a time, and monitor any new faces closely. Still, about half the guys are already on 2.4 MHZ, and I may be soon as well, I got my 9303 2.4 MHz over the holidays. As 72 MHZ continues to migrate down in cost, as all obsolete (market driven, not technical obsolescence) technologies do, it will become more and more the band of cheap ready to fly models, piloted by untrained people. It will be a very risky place to be. Just some thoughts, and observations. Your thoughts?

Very well put Steve. I understand what your trying to say. The "newbies" don't know the difference between 72mhz and 2.4 and when you walk in the hobby store and you can walk out with 72 (for a great price) or wait for 2.4 at a higher price.......well you walk out with 72! Its called impulse buying!

[I'm Sure Steve didn't mean that the store only sells 72 to newbies.]


Your second part has rang true for me also......I no longer look at the pin board to see who's flying what freq. I don't care anymore! Right after Xmas we had about 25 folks show up at the field. Granted I knew all of them. But I didn't give it a second thought that someone was on my freq. Made for worry free flying that day (other than potential mid-airs!)


And lastly.......I don't think their is anymore threat of shot downs to the 72 crowd than there was before. If it rings true that mostly newbies are buying the 72mhz, than that is no different than a couple years ago. As long as the "old heads" on 72 remain vigilant like years past it shouldn't be any more of an issue than it was

[Mithrandir]

I got my first 2.4 GHZ last thursday.... (You already know this Steve!!).. but I am not sure the story ends with 2.4 Ghz.... there is also 900 mhz... apparently there are prototypes out there... and the concept of "Spread Spectrum" as applied by FUTABA could virtually be applied even on the 72 Mhz band... why not..... there are fifty 72 mhz channels... why not channel hop thru those?? I am not sure myself that 2.4 is here to stay... but I can bet you that the practice of flying with no worries of interference from other fliers IS here to stay.....
We live in interesting times.... Awesome Planes/ARF's, Awesome Motors and Awesome Radios,, ('specially FUTABA!!! lol)

[Dsp Dave]

Everyone knows that the 72mhz is solely dedicated to radio control airplanes (at least a few channels ), well about three years ago I was told by someone that works for the goverment that we would be losing our 72mhz soon. Well he said it more like this " You guys flying your little toy airplanes are gonna be screwed as soon as we take over your 72mhz" At the time I just kind of laughed it off and didn't really believe him but now that I sit back and think about it ever since he told me that we have been hearing of a new radio system being developed(2.4) and now it seems to slowly but surely become the dominate force and the way everything is going.
I switched over and have never looked back, just the satisfaction of knowing someone can't shoot you down is enough reason for me. Been using the FASST system for awhile now and no problems.
Maybe the guy who told me about us losing 72mhz was full of crap or maybe he wasn't, but it was kind of funny how it all worked out.

[1bwana1]

rede2fly,
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was try to say that the experienced guys are not choosing to buy 72 MHz systems, so the only ones buying them are the new guys. The manufacturers and stores are, of course, willing to sell to anyone.

Sam,
Like you said, you no longer pay attention to the frequency board. When the experienced guys stop policing the frequency, the risks on the 72 MHZ band go up. Having less people on the band will probably not end up being safer for those that stay on 72 MHZ. At least not in the near term.

Mith,
Yeah I know you got your Futaba 2.4 system. I am very interested to hear your experiences with it. I agree with you that it is not the frequency that is the big step forward, it is the protocols and rules, of the frequency that are providing the benefits. I have seen a 900 MHz system being tested. Given that the 900 MHZ band has better penetrating power and similar protocols to 2.4 MHz, it has the potential to be a superior band. I wish it was possible to re-write the 72 MHz band protocols to match the 2.4 MHz protocols. It would be the best of all worlds. No shoot downs, far superior range, and penetrating power. I can't see that happening though, too many legacy systems out there.

It is interesting that all of you are seeing similar patterns where you shop and fly. It is fun to watch a new technology moving so quickly. In the long run, safety, enjoyment, and costs, will go down because of this technology.

[Hammbone]

Why would the experienced guys that choose not to use 2.4Ghz go and buy a 72Mhz radio? We already have our 72Mhz radios.
I've been flying with a JR 10X tx on 72Mhz for more than 15 years. If something better comes along, I'll think about switching, but I'm still waiting for something better to come along.
I think you are not realizing that 72Mhz isn't selling because we already have them. Also, all you 2.4Ghz guys are selling off your used 72Mhz at way below retail, so why would anyone buy a new 72Mhz when they can get a used one so cheap?
The field I fly at is still predominantly 72Mhz. In fact, I only know of one guy flying on 2.4Ghz, and he is the "new guy". I would bet there are many other flying fields just like mine.

Jim

[crhammond]

If you look in the LHS they not stocking ANY 72mhz. ALL the LHS here have old stock of 72mhz and if you want an Rx you are doing a special order.

They also push 2.4ghz like it's the be-all-and-end-all of RC technology. Both of the biggest LHS around here have told me that their primary RC sales are park flyeys by a mile. My 2c 2.4GHz on these is safer for everyone since there is no chance of shoot downs. I'm happy when I see a new guy come out with 2.4ghz because even if he messes up it won't cost anyone.

For myself - I tried 2.4 right when it came out and had a lot of issues. None related to the technology - just related to bad luck and getting equipment that didn't last/was DOA/failed in flight. I didn't see much 2.4 at all at my main field last year (maybe 2%) - but some fields around here have gone almost 100% 2.4. I think it will be some time before everyone converts.

I am now converting to 2.4 FASST since I can keep my familiar 12Z which I know how to program and get all the benefits of 2.4. I am converting for all the common reasons:
1. the performance is better (smoother, faster, more locked in)
2. The more guys switching from 72mhz to 2.4 the higher the chances of someone forgetting to pin up and the higher my chances of being shot down
3. Now I won't accidentally shoot someone down (as long as I keep remembering to pin-up on 72mhz...)

[aviti]

I figured we'd see you on this thread (Jim) Hammbone. I have to respect your opinion in fact a few months ago I was in the same boat. I knew the issues with 72 and had dealt with them successfully for years and 2.4 was an unknown. Jim, I really think you are listening to the problems of very few vs the success of so many more. I think it is wise to wait a while with new technology so many will do this. But at some point, you're the guy with the 8 track tape system.

My opinion is that frequency control has been one of the scariest aspects of our hobby for years. Most of us have way too much at stake to chance someone else just turning on their Tx at the wrong moment. I can deal with crashing my plane for most reasons but I find it really hard to knowingly use a system so vulnerable to stupidilty (72) when there is something available that eliminates this risk. I agree 2.4 isn't perfect. Really, what is perfectly reliable? But it is sure as heck getting better by the day. Now that it is clear this is what people want (no freq pin), the development will be constant and rapid.

By the way, I sold all my 72 receivers. I didn't get that much for them but it was better than waiting another year or so and getting nothing. I really believe that will be the case. 72 will be obsolete soon in my opinion.

[Hammbone]

Tony,
I would much rather risk being shot down on 72Mhz, than risk signal loss on 2.4Ghz. I don't like a system where you have to use 2 rx's, and are encouraged to use 3 or 4 rx's (the AR9100 system), just to try and keep from loosing the signal.

I have some control over being shot down. All you need to do is educate people and stress the importance of frequency control. The field I fly at is not that busy. I've been flying for 18 years now, and being shot down has been only a very minor concern for me, and has never happened to me. I am also using synthesized tx/rx's now, so if someone shows up on my frequency, I simply switch to another frequency. This past year, as far as I know, there has not been another pilot even show up at our field on the frequency I am currently using. This makes being shot down pretty much a non issue for me.

I have no control over the limited range and signal blocking problems present in the 2.4Ghz technology. I don't like that. A lot of my planes have quite a bit of carbon fiber in them. 2.4Ghz has a bigger problem getting the signal past carbon fiber.

If I flew at a field where there were 50 pilots present on any given day, and I was concerned about frequency control, I might want to try 2.4Ghz. However, If the only fields available to me were that busy, I probably would not even fly.

My point here was not to argue about which system is better. Use whatever you want to.
I was simply pointing out the reasons why you don't see many new 72Mhz systems being sold.

There have been many 2.4Ghz systems sold in the last year or two, but does that mean it now dominates the hobby? I don't think so, not yet anyway. I think there are still far more 72Mhz systems in use.

Jim

[micp]

The fact is that 2.4 is dominant when you look at the number of systems being sold versus 72mhz. I am sure that at most fields 72mhz will continue to have a significant number of folks for many years to come. If you look at folks buying new radios however they are buying 2.4. JR and Futaba are developing these systems because is makes great business sense and this is a significant leap in technology. This is not a statement about the technical merits of 2.4 versus 72mhz it is a statement about the change in behavior (frequency control concerns) that has taken place and is perhaps the most compelling reason to buy. Most of us buy a new transmitter every couple of years (4-5 for me). How many guys do you know that are going to replace their 72mhz stuff with 72mhz? Probably very few. It is clear looking at the way that JR is approaching the market (heavy incentives for 9303 72mhz systems) that they have decided that these systems are at the end of their product cycle. This does not mean that they are not useful to the consumer but they simply are not as good of a business proposition to dump R&D money into. A recent example of this is Sony is stopping production of rear projection (DLP style) TV sets and concentrating on LCD. Having two of their sets I can attest to the fact that they are great but for Sony is simply makes better sense to go with one technology and that is the one that is selling the most sets.

BTW, i doubt that their are many fields in the USA that only have one guy on 2.4. I have visited three fields in the past 3 months and it seems about 30% 2.4 and 70% 72 mhz from what I can see. It could be a regional thing. I know when I lived in Ca we all had YS motors but here they are very rare.