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Old 08-04-2012, 01:02 PM   #76
danie.e
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Default Kraft Super Fli

Dear Matt,

If by any chance you know if that "vortex" is still there, Is there any means that one can get contact with the present owner so that photos can be hunted down? Being a Fli-Manic, I would love to get hold of any information about the Fli even if it has been butchered a bit.

Love to hear fom you

Danie
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Old 08-05-2012, 04:03 PM   #77
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Danie
Absolutely I can post pics here or send them to you it really is quite ugly as Matt chapman said! Still quite a piece of history... My dad loves the superfli and still has the 93" and is looki g to build a bigger one... Do you have any info on the one you built?? I know we would both be very interested
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Old 08-05-2012, 04:29 PM   #78
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Please post some pictures here. I also would like to see what has become of the beautiful Super Fli. I'm a big fan of this great airplane.
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Old 08-05-2012, 06:32 PM   #79
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Here is a nice picture from the cover of Model Airplane News Feb. 1977. Photo taken at the 3rd International Tournament of Champions in Las Vegas. Article says pilot Steve Nelson thrilled the crowd with a demo flight of the full scale Super Fli.
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:16 PM   #80
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Default Kraft Super Fli

Dear Matt,

Please post pictures here, but also if you could send them to me at danie@aspaviation.co.za

My first Fli was built off enlarged plans of the article in that 1977 magazine. Still have a scratch built 60 size hanging in my garage. It was covered with oratex and painted with K2 paint.

My new model will eventually also be re-covered and painted as soon as the plastic covering start showing hangar rash.

To answer questions about the present model, the wings are slightly longer than 3 m and the fuselage is about 2.86 m. The model was built for me by my main supplier in China. The original build was was 3 units. I imported all 3 and the picture I posted is of the first one built. One model has been sold to a close friend and still unbuilt and the 3rd model is going to a new home quite soon.

Should there be enough demand in the US for this model, my supplier is prepared to build a minimum quantity of 6 units. A pallet with 6 units can very easily be shipped to the US from China and I am sure at a much lower cost than to South Africa.

I do not know how much 40 to 45% models sell in the US, but the Super FLi, shipping cost excluded should sell for about 800 USD
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:43 PM   #81
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Quote: Originally Posted by danie.e
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Hi All,

Thanks for the kind words.

Steve, maybe we could compare some notes. Firstly the model has a tendency to "balloon" when landing because it is what I call a "floater" just a tad too much throttle and she just keeps on flying. So I tend to come in a bit too fast. I will get it right, just a case of getting used to it.

I have not yet been able to induce a "tipstall" like so many other acrobats do and Snap rolls are not violent.

I am also amazed at how the plane rolls. Because of the low wing high stab configuration, I expected a reasonable amount of up elevator would be required to keep a straight line. Fact is I have to do very little correction to keep rolls straight.

Vertical climb, because of the 170 is a breeze and what amazes me most is that I do virtually no corrections to go straight up.

How does all this differ from the real Fli??? I know it was many moons ago, but I am sure you still remember very well how the real one behaved.
Danie,

I can remember all the characteristics like it was yesterday. What you describe here were the same in the full size.

The airfoil design had a fully symmetrical airfoil which was 18% thick at the root and 15% at the wing tip. As a result, this wing takes on a very high angle of attack before it stalls. Probably 18 degrees at least. I have performed full stall landings with the tailwheel touching down first and the mains still over 10 inches off the ground and the wing was still flying.

The home base airport in Oceanside, California was so narrow that the nose and the leading edge of the wing would totally block out any view of that runway. One had to take a big leap of faith that the runway was still underneath the wheels. As a result, full stall landings with the inherent float made for long landings. I actually developed a technique where I would do a full forward slip short of the touch down zone, briefly convert it to a full stall flare and landing, then push the nose over to level flight attitude and stand on the brakes. That would produce the shortest possible landing distance for this airplane. Several small airports I performed at required this technique. The visibility was better and it was the only way to bleed off the extra airspeed. Tough to do in a model.

The tip stall characteristics you describe are just like the real thing. One could perform the falling leaf maneuver and easily manage keeping the wings level with the rudder. In fact, because it didn't want to tip stall, spin entries in competition took a little hit from the judges. It was difficult to get a good smooth and consistent auto rotation started. One had to put a small amount of in-spin aileron into it to make it look better. Also the first rotation had some variation in pitching going on before it would settle into a spin. Some competition spins were too short to allow the spin to look stabilized so scores suffered.

Of course in full scale, mixing isn't really a factor or even considered. The pilot does whatever is required to maintain the proper visual reference. There were no unusual or excessive elevator or rudder inputs required in any maneuver. Point rolls and knife edge flight were clean and no tricky cross controls were required. Vertical lines up and down were straightforward. Right rudder was required near the top of vertical as speed was reduced just before a hammer or a tailslide. That was improved greatly by adding gap seals to the rudder. That probably reduced rudder required by more than half.

The roll rate was slow by today's standards and measured 180 degrees per second. Initially the ailerons were relatively heavy. That was improved by later adding spades or shovels. By doing that, we made all three flight control's balance very well. All were light and easily managed. Much like the modern Extra's of today.

The snaps tended to be a little bit deep by today's standards. I managed that by pulling elevator and rudder to the stops then taking half the elevator out once the stall was achieved. The popular Unlimited designs today have a tighter rotation. The ability to control the stopping point of the Super Fli was very good and predictable for it's day.

All in all, I'm sure what you are finding in your flight characteristics match the full size very closely.

I am so excited to see your finished product. I'm wishing now I had taken you up on your offer to build one for me. This model would go nicely with my Carden 128" Extra 260 or my 124" Extra 300 Pro. Both of these have a DA-200 in the nose. Put a DA-200 in the nose of your Super Fli, and it would be very scale.

Nice job Danie, and thanks a bunch for sharing.

Steve Nelson
San Diego, California

Last edited by Thumb Thumb; 08-06-2012 at 12:56 PM. Reason: Grammar
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Old 08-06-2012, 09:04 PM   #82
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Quote: Originally Posted by danie.e
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My first Fli was built off enlarged plans of the article in that 1977 magazine. Still have a scratch built 60 size hanging in my garage. It was covered with oratex and painted with K2 paint.
The Super Fli article and plans aren't in this Feb. 77 issue of Model Airplane News. I think was an older issue. Not sure which one. Anybody remember which issue?

Doug's build thread has turned into a great source of documentation to the Kraft Super Fli. I'd like to personally thank the pilot Steve Nelson for sharing his great stories, photos and details.
I leaned some interesting facts about the Super Fli such as the improved landing gear.

Last edited by McLeodAviation; 08-07-2012 at 01:05 PM. Reason: correct spelling error
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:46 AM   #83
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Quote: Originally Posted by danie.e
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Dear Matt,

Please post pictures here, but also if you could send them to me at danie@aspaviation.co.za

My first Fli was built off enlarged plans of the article in that 1977 magazine. Still have a scratch built 60 size hanging in my garage. It was covered with oratex and painted with K2 paint.

My new model will eventually also be re-covered and painted as soon as the plastic covering start showing hangar rash.

To answer questions about the present model, the wings are slightly longer than 3 m and the fuselage is about 2.86 m. The model was built for me by my main supplier in China. The original build was was 3 units. I imported all 3 and the picture I posted is of the first one built. One model has been sold to a close friend and still unbuilt and the 3rd model is going to a new home quite soon.

Should there be enough demand in the US for this model, my supplier is prepared to build a minimum quantity of 6 units. A pallet with 6 units can very easily be shipped to the US from China and I am sure at a much lower cost than to South Africa.

I do not know how much 40 to 45% models sell in the US, but the Super FLi, shipping cost excluded should sell for about 800 USD

Sorry I haven't made it to the airport while the hangar was open yet. I will post pics as soon as I get to the plane. But for That price seriously if you need six. Pencil us in for 2! We both want one. What would we realistically have to do to get them built? And just curious what country/ state are you located in?
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Old 08-07-2012, 12:28 PM   #84
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Default Kraft Super Fli

My mistake, it was from one of the late 70,s MAP magazines. Some photos earlier in this thread comes from that magazine.

Matt,

I am in South Africa and live in a town called Vereeniging about 45 km from Johannesburg. I run my own hobby import and distribution business called ASP Aviation and my history with Kraft radios, Kaos, Super Kaos and Stik models has led to my developing my own stik version called the Drastik which is now beginning to become popular worldwide. The company in China that builds these models developed my Super Fli off blueprints of the original Super Fli.

The airfield where I fly is called Henley Aero Modellers and is about 12 km from my home. Henley will be the host for next years F3A World Championships and if the Good Lord permits, I will meet the US team there.

If you can find another 4 buyers, I am sure we can have six units built and shipped out to the US. I am sure that we can find someone in the US that can receive the 6 models and arrange shipping to the respective buyers. Obviously the whole deal can only be done on a pre-paid basis.
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:29 PM   #85
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Quote: Originally Posted by danie.e
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The airfield where I fly is called Henley Aero Modellers and is about 12 km from my home. Henley will be the host for next years F3A World Championships and if the Good Lord permits, I will meet the US team there.

If you can find another 4 buyers, I am sure we can have six units built and shipped out to the US. I am sure that we can find someone in the US that can receive the 6 models and arrange shipping to the respective buyers. Obviously the whole deal can only be done on a pre-paid basis.
I wish I had the money for one. This is one of the planes that I watched fly in the NE when I was a kid that got me hooked on aerobatics. Hopefully if I get to go to SA and you still have that Super-Fli flying, would love to get a flight on it if there's time.

Jason
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:47 PM   #86
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:34 AM   #87
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Quote: Originally Posted by JAS
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I wish I had the money for one. This is one of the planes that I watched fly in the NE when I was a kid that got me hooked on aerobatics. Hopefully if I get to go to SA and you still have that Super-Fli flying, would love to get a flight on it if there's time.

Jason
Hey Jason,

First of all, Congratulations on making the team again. If you do get to see the Super Fli, I want a report from you. We wish you the very best!

Steve and Sue
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:53 AM   #88
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Default Original Super Fli Drawings

To all you scale builders, I have attached the original blueprints, In case this helps your project along. Supplied by Dan Rihn. I forgot I had these in storage too.


Super_Fli_Tail_Surfaces.pdf

Super_Fli_Fuselage_Truss.pdf

Super_Fli__General_Arrangement.pdf

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Old 08-08-2012, 11:55 AM   #89
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Hi All,

Am I reading it right that Jas has made it to the US team to visit us next year?????? Maybe someone can post their faces here so I can maybe recognize them when they arrive.

Thumb Thumb, many thanks for those pdf's - I am busy making a file on the FLi that I wish to present to the judges at one of our local scale meetings. The 42% model will be entered in the "Stand off" scale category because of the lack of material to constuct the orginal cockpit and other detail required for a proper scale model. All these bits and pieces are beginning to form a clearer picture of the aircraft.

Now if Matt can get to the "vortex" maybe lady luck has it that the cockpit has not been changed and one could use pictures from it for a scale project.

I must say that I am quite amazed at how many people took a liking in the original Super Fli. In my eyes it is still one of the best looking single seat aircraft ever built.

Danie
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Old 08-08-2012, 12:15 PM   #90
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Thanks Steve. I definitely hope to be able to give you a full report. Tell Sue Hello from me.

Here's the full US F3A Team now

L-R: Brett Wickizer, Andrew Jesky, Jason Shulman
Center: Joseph Szczur
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