NW IMAC Competition Thread

[Rick Sowell]

Jeff: I looked at the pilot file for Oly. and your Imac was entered as 9999, probably a default in the score program for a missed entry, did Keith get it fixed? let me know and sorry for the problems. Rick

[kbodeau]

The if flight sound rules read:
5.4. In-Flight Judging Criteria, Known and Unknown Sequences. Judges will evaluate each individual sequence flown in its entirety for overall sound presentation. Each judged Known and Unknown sequence, shall have one "figure" added to the end of the score sheet after individually judged maneuvers. This figure shall be known as the Sound Score. The Sound Score will have a K value dependent on the class flown. Individual class K values shall be: Unlimited 5 K, Advanced 4K, Intermediate 3K, Sportsman 2K, and Basic, 1K. The bottom of each score sheet shall contain three boxes, Too Noisy, Acceptable and Very Quiet. Judges will mark one of the boxes for each sequence flown. These boxes shall translate in the computer to a score of: Too Noisy - 0, Acceptable – 5, Very Quiet - 10. This score will then be multiplied by the K value for the individual class. If two judges are utilized, both judges‘ scores must concur to issue a Too Noisy penalty or a Very Quiet bonus. In absence of a Too Noisy or Very Quiet concurrence, an Acceptable will be scored for each sequence flown. If three or more judges are utilized, a simple majority concurrence will issue a Too Noisy penalty or Very Quiet bonus. All Pilots that receive a Too Noisy penalty shall be notified of the penalty by the Contest Director prior to the next round. Pilots that receive a Too Noisy penalty will be allowed to adjust the aircraft setup and fly the next round (Known Unknown). Any pilot, who receives a second Too Noisy penalty during any Known, or Unknown, will be disqualified from further competition at that contest.
The rule changes next year so the judges will not have to agree on "To Noisy or "Very quiet". Also the scoring will change to 0-10 in 1pt increments.

The (7)'s on the score sheets are only there to flag sound scores that do not match. For instance one judge gave a 10 and the other gave a 5 on the same sequence. I remove these before the scores get posted and that is why you do not see any on the other contest results. There are typically quite a few of these scattered among the results.

Unfortunatly you can not judge sound on just equipment, the end result will be pilots getting 10's on sound and flying with no throttle control and very loud because they purchased the right equipment. The fact that a lot of 5's are being given come from a few things I believe:
(1) The rule that requires judges to agree on 0's and 10's
(2) I think as judges we are getting lazy and it is just easier to give 5's on sound scores
(3) The planes are quieter now then they were a few years back and it is getting harder to tell what is "Very Quiet" and what is "Acceptable".
I do not think we have any problems with excessively loud planes for the most part, most of them fall into the Acceptable and Very quiet catagory which is good as most pilots are doing a good job. This also makes it harder to distinguish a 5 from a 10. I always try not to pay to much attention to equipment and judge strictly based on what I hear. If a pilot can fly using very good throttle control and his plane is quiet with a 2 blade then he should get a 10. On the other hand if he is consistantly going across the box full throttle, ripping the prop, he should probably get a 0 even if he has Canister mufflers. The hard part is the middle ground hand you just have to do the best you can. If you don't think it is quiet enough to be a 10 or noisey enough to be a 10 then a 5 is probably the correct score.

Remember, we all do this for fun, but it can only be fun if we all do our best in the judges chair and judge other contestants the way you would want to be judged.
As a judge be Consistant, Unbiased, and know & study the rules, this takes practice and comittment the same as our flying.

Keith

[BorderLine]

	Quote:
	ATTENTION Olympia Imac Pilots, the scores for Intermediate and Advanced Known round 4 on sunday were lost in the computer, the 4th round DID NOT get scored, I need to see if the following pilots have their score sheets, Mike Raines, Roni Taipale, Rick Gadd, Warren Wilson, Jerry Ruscheinski, I need to get these sheets to Keith Bodeau so we can get this fixed, also if you don't have your sheets they may be with the scoring materials that Darren Kuhn has. let me know what you guy's have. sorry for the problems Rick

Hi Rick..

I'll scan my score sheets today and foward them to Keith.

Jerry

[Peter Butschek]

	Quote: Originally Posted by borealnw
	That said I hope I did not put folks out redoing the data entry if so I owe ya a cold one at the next event.

I've heard that 6 people are put out and don't drink I will gladly accept the "cold ones" on their behalf...

[Rick Sowell]

	Quote: Originally Posted by BorderLine
	Hi Rick.. I'll scan my score sheets today and foward them to Keith. Jerry

Thanks Jerry, thats what I needed. Rick

[dlurvey]

I'm in agreement with Keith. Spending hundred of dollars on cannisters and props shouldn't guarantee a 10 on the sound score. If the pilot is not using using throttle management and is ripping the prop then giving a ten isn't appropriate. As a judge, the criteria is not how much a pilot spent, but the noise generated.
To sum up how Kurtis Waites judges sound; If you have to think about if it was to loud, then it was . If you have to think, was it very quiet, then it wasn't.

This is from the Judging Section on the National IMAC site.

To score ASC. and Sound - Kurtis Waites
The best way I have found to score ASC and Sound, and to be very consistent to each flight and pilot has come to be a simple method. Hope this helps some to understand more of how to score these areas of policing to be more neighbor friendly.
ASC
First off most judges try to compare this score to a figure score, starting with a 10 and deduct for deviations. Well that approach just does not work with these types of scoring. What I have found in judging these areas, is each pilot automatically starts with a 5. With a 5 being the middle ground, it is fair to say this would be the average or the acceptable flight.
Now as the sequence is flown and at the conclusion of the sequence, I quickly go to mind to note how the pilot demonstrated the control of the airspace. Not to the fact of flying right on the dead line as some think, but more on the thought of the awareness of the size of the figures. Did the pilot fly unnecessary long lines between figures, long vertical lines not needed for elements, did the pilot keep the sequence relatively condensed. Then I adjust my score accordingly. If nothing really comes to mind, then I stay with the 5. If however it comes to mind that the pilot did show some awareness, flew fairly short lines between figures, but maybe could be shorter. At this point I adjust my score maybe to a 6 or 7.
Of course this score goes up the better the pilot shows airspace control. Now on the other hand if a pilot flies excessive long lines or unnecessary large figures, maybe total sequences larger than it needs to be, then I go down with the score to maybe a 4 or 3. If the pilot flies extremely long lines and large figures then I may give a 2. If it gets to where I can’t even see the airplane at times I may even give a 1.
This method of scoring has been the only way that I have found to be the most consistent and fair without comparing each pilot’s flight to each other, which I could not do in large classes. But this method I share with you will, with practice, be the most consistent way to score ASC because each pilot will always start as an acceptable airspace flight. Now it is up to the pilot to demonstrate a better than average, or worse than average, ASC for a different score.
Sound
I use the same method as stated above to score sound also. Each pilot starts with a 5 before the airplane even starts up. At the completion of the sequence, I recognize if this airplane was very quiet. Then I adjust the score to a 10. If I recognize it to be too loud I then give a 0. Now if nothing of the two come to mind, then the 5 is given. Each pilot has to earn either score other than a 5. If I have to think, was it too loud, then it was. If I have to think, was it very quiet, then it wasn’t.
I have found that if I think of everything to begin with is acceptable at first, and then the boundaries either way are easier to recognize. Hope this approach of these scores can help everybody have a more consistent means of scoring each component.

[Rick Sowell]

Jeff: I am glad you brought it to my attention on the scores, I didn't pay attention on Sunday, just wanted to get you guy's on the road and clean up and get some rest. we will get it fixed, all the pilots have responded and we need to check with Darren, and get the score sheets for Warren and Roni, and Rick Gadd, then we will have everthing complete. Thanks for your help. Rick

[borealnw]

Well Kurtis Waites way of judging is not accurate. All contestants start with a 10 then points are deducted as the flight goes on. Again as Keith said it is getting harder to know the difference of a quiet plane because most are as quiet as they can get. My point is how can a score of 5 be given to an elec plane that is not ripping props. Hmm could it be the judge used Kurtis's method well nothing comes to mind other then I need to pee so give em a 5.

[dlurvey]

	Quote: Originally Posted by borealnw
	Well Kurtis Waites way of judging is not accurate. All contestants start with a 10 then points are deducted as the flight goes on. Again as Keith said it is getting harder to know the difference of a quiet plane because most are as quiet as they can get. My point is how can a score of 5 be given to an elec plane that is not ripping props. Hmm could it be the judge used Kurtis's method well nothing comes to mind other then I need to pee so give em a 5.

What part of the AMA Competition Regulations for 2009-2010 states, that in regard to sound, contestants start with a 10 and points are then deducted?
You might want to re-read this section.
5.4. In-Flight Judging Criteria, Known and Unknown Sequences.
Here's the link so you can look it up: www.modelaircraft.org/files/ScaleAerobatics2010.pdf

Not saying I use his method, but it's a place to start if one wanted to try to be objective. I'd go with Kurtis Waites( a professional baseball umpire)method before yours, which I believe is not correct. Sorry.

[sweetpea]

The reason folks start with a 10 is because of deductions. All sequences have deductions based on improper placement of the plane. Thus you start with 10 and are deducted as you go.


I've judged regular planes, 3 blades, cans, pipes and electrics. I don't care what you put in your plane. If you are loud you get a 5. If you extremely loud you get a 0. If I can barely hear your plane you get a 10.

BTW, I've given an electric a 5 (almost a zero but he didn't rip the prop). Electrics can be just as or even louder than gas. Remember, gas is a low sound, glow is a high pitch sound, electrics are in between.

The only real way to test is with a dB meter in flight while one plane flies at a time. Even that won't be that accurate as temp/wind/atmospheric will change throughout the day so no telling who is loud or not.

Straight 5's usually mean

1. Judges are lazy
2. Judges don't know how to score sound (i.e. What is quiet and what is not?) Not technically their fault
3. Judges can't hear very well
4. the plane wasn't that quiet


As a CD though, any zero should be reported to the CD. A change should be made and the CD should watch the next flight. If sound was an issue, make the pilot land between sequences and make another change then finish at the end of the line. If sound was an issue again then pilot should be refunded the entry fee and told they cannot compete due to sound. Yes it sucks for the CD to do this and you won't make any friends but typically the CD is from the home field so that person doesn't want to lose the right to fly there all year long.

Only other option is to not hold the contest where sound is an issue and waiver out the sound score.

[dqman40rock]

Note to pilots: When landing with rudder, let go of rudder when plane touches down. Plane can crack inside from stress.
My wheel pants did not get caught from that crack landing. My plane cracked inside near the landing gear structure. Light built plane needs gentle landings.
Funny thing is we kept flying on Sunday. I get home, take my plane out to install smoke and the gear is flopping and a portion of the bottom of the plane is cracked about 12 inches. The foam cracked too!!
I fixed it. No one would have known about this. I am telling you guys because I know this is a safe place. A place where we can air our dirty laundry. A place where we can open up and reveal our weeknesses without fear of persecution or condemnation.
My name is Darren. I am Imac aholic. I have not flown for three days........................

[dlurvey]

Hello Darren.

[USN_POPS]

	Quote: Originally Posted by dqman40rock
	I am telling you guys because I know this is a safe place. A place where we can air our dirty laundry. A place where we can open up and reveal our weeknesses without fear of persecution or condemnation. My name is Darren. I am Imac aholic. I have not flown for three days........................

A little persecution never hurt any body.

And keep your dirty laundry off the floor. Right Cheri?

[Rainman]

	Quote: Originally Posted by dqman40rock
	Note to pilots: When landing with rudder, let go of rudder when plane touches down. Plane can crack inside from stress. My wheel pants did not get caught from that crack landing. My plane cracked inside near the landing gear structure. Light built plane needs gentle landings. Funny thing is we kept flying on Sunday. I get home, take my plane out to install smoke and the gear is flopping and a portion of the bottom of the plane is cracked about 12 inches. The foam cracked too!! I fixed it. No one would have known about this. I am telling you guys because I know this is a safe place. A place where we can air our dirty laundry. A place where we can open up and reveal our weeknesses without fear of persecution or condemnation. My name is Darren. I am Imac aholic. I have not flown for three days........................

I knew I had it screwed up. All this time and I thought you were a FREAK....lol! Good thing you found it now instesad of another field repair.

[Rick Sowell]

Darren, PM me about Imac score sheets. Rick