Kiwi's XPS test results are up.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by sweetpea
	He probably can if he has his own forum here, as can any other manufacturer and they all edit/delete threads (per RCG, don't know if FG will be like that now that they are in charge). This thread is not in an XPS forum (currently FG doesn't have one). I do find it quite hilarous that all the Critics that went to JN didn't have the gall to confront XPS in person and discuss any issues. Keyboard huckers! But we had far away pictures taken and folks talking about how empty the booth was? When my plane crashed and I found out they were in town, I confronted them. I asked the hard questions! Some answers I liked, some answers I didn't. The ones I didn't caused me to wait to put XPS back into my GS planes. I'm still waiting and unfortunantly its been over a year. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and move on instead of waiting. I already moved my GS to Spektrum (main reason.....so I don't accidently shoot someone else's plane down! I can afford to lose my own stuff, but I can't afford to pay for someone else's plane). I've been flying my smaller planes on XPS, but carrying two 2.4 systems is really silly. Had I made the JN (which I want to, but just can't get the time off work).....I would have been there asking about the "new" hopping, Telemetry, satellites and talking about Kiwi's video. My most important question would have been......tell me the conditions it would take to hop (no matter how technical in detail it would be) since it hasn't been defined. I of course wouldn't have been at the booth calling them liars and everything. I would have been proffessional about it. NOTE: There may have been some FG members that did do this or something similar and have just not posted yet. I look forward to any information they may have gathered.

Actually, sweetpea, since I have never used XPS, "confrontation" was not in the game plan. . observation and a couple of questions sufficed to show that they really had nothing going on, and that all their rhetoric and crazy claims were just that. . . fluff and not much else. I'd rather get the evidence of how inadequate the entire operation was, than cause a fight, slash tires, pull out a gun, or make a big scene. It's not worth it. .it's not the time, nor the place, for any of that.

In case you have never been to the Nall, it is NOT a place where people butt heads and jump into a fight. It's laid back, everyone (including Jim Drew) is welcome (even Chip Hyde has been there a couple of times) and it is a place for bringing out the POSITIVE side of the hobby, not getting in someones face and giving them a hard time. Everyone at the Nall, including myself, goes to great lengths to bury their pride, not cause a big ruckus, and to get along. There were a couple of confrontations between major JN players, where the people in question were totally PO'd, yet walked away rather than cause a big scene. That sort of "getting along" is VERY much encouraged at the JN. Even the guys who mid-aired my MX-2 last year (the big dummies) sat down with me and everything was cool. Ya think that little $3500 loss does not make me mad?? It surely does, but Joe Nall is something different. It's neutral ground for everyone in the hobby. Check your attitudes, anger, and bad feelings at the Gate, because they are not welcome there.

Sometimes the best tactic with someone like JD is to just observe him, take notes, ask a few questions tomake sure he is stillup to the same old game plane, and then inform the rest of the modeling public about him.

After all, XPS does work. . usually. Bringing in a lynch mob to the largest Giant Scale meet in the world, JUST to have at JD is a very bad idea. For all my disgust over him and his marketing techniques, I'd have stepped in and stopped anything resembling actual confrontation or violence if I had seen it. .even for Jim Drew. The Joe Nall is NOT the place for that. If you want to catch him and make him look like a villian, please do it somewhere besides JN.

And yes, being the conniving individual I am, I had all sorts of ideas running in my head about how to make life unpleasant for JD. It would have been VERY easy to do. Now, if I can control MY urges, I'm sure that people of less drastic tendencies would be able to hold themselves in check as well. . especially at JN.

So, chill on the "you guys didn't get in JD's face at JN" speech. it was neither the time, nor place.

[XJet]

	Quote: Originally Posted by sweetpea
	When my plane crashed and I found out they were in town, I confronted them. I asked the hard questions!

Well I'd really like to sit down around a table and discuss XPS with JD -- and in fact, he publicly stated that he was going to send a private jet out here to pick me up and fly me to Arizona so we could do just that.

Unfortunately, like so much of his hype, this was just hot air.

Now he claims I should be banned because I have an agenda -- which is absolutely true.

Of course he doesn't acknowledge that my agenda is simply to ensure that people know the *whole* picture in respect to the capabilities and limitations of XPS. All I want is for people to be aware that there is no "unique eight-element patent-pending spherical antenna", no useful frequency agility and that antenna diversity *is* important. I want folks to know that it makes no sense to use a second-tier 2.4GHz system in an expensive, large or fast model when there are first-tier solutions on the market that will provide much higher levels of safety.

But, I guess an agenda is an agenda -- whether it's an altruistic one intended to benefit the consumer or not. It's nice to know that anyone who wishes to protect people from potentially losing large expensive models and/or injuring/killing members of the public is persona-non-grata in some places.

And you know the crazy thing about this whole situation...

JD still refuses to even consider having XPS submitted to an independent testing authority for validation of his claims.

If XPS worked as claimed then he could thumb his nose at all the naysayers, restore market confidence in the product and probably boost his sales enormously by this one simple move.

One can only speculate why he refuses to even consider independent testing as an option to resolve his current credibility woes (but I think everyone knows the answer)

At one time he claimed I was probably secretly working for another manufacturer and that's why I was slagging off his claims. Well since I've pretty much had good things to say about *all* the other vendors, I don't see how that works.

And, if RCG want to be party to allowing JD to continue deceiving unsuspecting model-fliers then I guess that's up to them. Perhaps there's more *money* to be made by offering a support forum to a snake-oil merchant and kicking off anyone who might challenge that deceit, than there is in ensuring your readers are protected from the same -- I don't know. I haven't been booted off RCG yet and I suspect that (despite JD's claim that I will) the RCG admins will not stoop that low, I'd prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that JD is BSing again.

[GBR2]

I was wondering about XJet being kicked off of RCG as JD was implying as much in one of his posts but then again I guess he was using that sort of weasel language that can be interpreted as he wants.

[RH1N0]

	Quote: Originally Posted by sweetpea
	He probably can if he has his own forum here, as can any other manufacturer and they all edit/delete threads (per RCG, don't know if FG will be like that now that they are in charge). This thread is not in an XPS forum (currently FG doesn't have one). I do find it quite hilarous that all the Critics that went to JN didn't have the gall to confront XPS in person and discuss any issues. Keyboard huckers! But we had far away pictures taken and folks talking about how empty the booth was? When my plane crashed and I found out they were in town, I confronted them. I asked the hard questions! Some answers I liked, some answers I didn't. The ones I didn't caused me to wait to put XPS back into my GS planes. I'm still waiting and unfortunantly its been over a year. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and move on instead of waiting. I already moved my GS to Spektrum (main reason.....so I don't accidently shoot someone else's plane down! I can afford to lose my own stuff, but I can't afford to pay for someone else's plane). I've been flying my smaller planes on XPS, but carrying two 2.4 systems is really silly. Had I made the JN (which I want to, but just can't get the time off work).....I would have been there asking about the "new" hopping, Telemetry, satellites and talking about Kiwi's video. My most important question would have been......tell me the conditions it would take to hop (no matter how technical in detail it would be) since it hasn't been defined. I of course wouldn't have been at the booth calling them liars and everything. I would have been proffessional about it. NOTE: There may have been some FG members that did do this or something similar and have just not posted yet. I look forward to any information they may have gathered.

Exactly sweetpea

From the pics it looks like there was a great opportunity to sit down and have a 1 on 1 consveration with the man. Perhaps buy him a cup of coffee, introduce yourself and be tactful in the way you lead into the topic of frequency hopping. Assume he hasn't seen Kiwi's vids so take a copy on your laptop and ask what are we doing wrong? How can we demonstrate hopping and verify that our XPS receivers are operating correctly? How whould he do it? With what equipment and what test methods?

Lynchings or stalking the guy is not Giants Style IMHO

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by XJet
	I haven't been booted off RCG yet and I suspect that (despite JD's claim that I will) the RCG admins will not stoop that low, I'd prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that JD is BSing again.

Uh. .are you inferring that JD STOPPED BS-ing at some point?? If so, I'd like to know when it happened. . . .

[sweetpea]

	Quote: Originally Posted by RH1N0
	Exactly sweetpea From the pics it looks like there was a great opportunity to sit down and have a 1 on 1 consveration with the man. Perhaps buy him a cup of coffee, introduce yourself and be tactful in the way you lead into the topic of frequency hopping. Assume he hasn't seen Kiwi's vids so take a copy on your laptop and ask what are we doing wrong? How can we demonstrate hopping and verify that our XPS receivers are operating correctly? How whould he do it? With what equipment and what test methods? Lynchings or stalking the guy is not Giants Style IMHO

That was what my post was referring to. I didn't expect any of the XPS bashers to throwdown with him or cause a stink. But JN would have been a good place to sit down and discuss the system and its limitations with the owner(s). If he wanted nothing to do with that conversation than fine.....move on.

Kris--I'm well aware of what JN is all about. It just seems odd that at both Toledo and JN all these people that dislike XPS (or maybe its just JD), they can't go and talk with the company face to face but they can get on the Keyboard and flame away. Of course if you know you couldn't do it civilized then by all means stay in the background.

Its just a pet-peeve of mine is all. If people don't have the guts to ask questions to someone's face......stay off the keyboard where people have no recourse for what they write.


Question for you that attended. Was Scott there with XPS? I've found him more knowledgable about the system and a nice person on top of that.

[jonkoppisch]

He was in the picture from JN..

[XJet]

	Quote: Originally Posted by RH1N0
	Exactly sweetpea From the pics it looks like there was a great opportunity to sit down and have a 1 on 1 consveration with the man. Perhaps buy him a cup of coffee, introduce yourself and be tactful in the way you lead into the topic of frequency hopping. Assume he hasn't seen Kiwi's vids so take a copy on your laptop and ask what are we doing wrong? How can we demonstrate hopping and verify that our XPS receivers are operating correctly? How whould he do it? With what equipment and what test methods? Lynchings or stalking the guy is not Giants Style IMHO

Yeah, I'm not usually a confrontational kind of person and I've offered to talk with Jim about ways to perhaps adjust his marketing material or look at ways to improve the performance of XPS (within the constraints of the XBeePro modules) in a positive light -- but he's never even bothered responding. Ah well, in his words, I'm just a "self-appointed expert".

When he said he'd fly me to AZ to see XPS hop I figured it was BS but if he'd been genuine I'd have been more than happy to listen to what he had to say with an open and objective perspective.

However, I don't think that's the way JD works. He is infallible and not even the laws of physics or undeniable proof to the contrary will convince him that he's wrong.

I forget how many times I've been wrong but the older I get, the faster the number rises ;-)

[Reckless Loony]

Has anybody ever considered that JD maybe suffering from a mental disorder?

Why else would he end up lying about something as innocuous as the number of booths at Joe Nall? There is absolutely nothing to be gained from lying about this and at such an event with so many independent witnesses such a lie is easily uncovered.

Is it possible that JD is a pathological liar?

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_can_yo...hological_liar

JD’s continued posting of BS reminds me of this recent series of Dr Phil shows about Matt.

http://drphil.com/shows/show/1035

At any rate JD certainly loves to say (I have also seen a JD video interview) and post BS there is little point in confronting him, as it would achieve nothing. If Xjet or anybody else things that JD is going to admit the flaws with XPS well its just not going to happen because in his mind there is nothing wrong with it.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Reckless Loony
	Has anybody ever considered that JD maybe suffering from a mental disorder? Why else would he end up lying about something as innocuous as the number of booths at Joe Nall? There is absolutely nothing to be gained from lying about this and at such an event with so many independent witnesses such a lie is easily uncovered. Is it possible that JD is a pathological liar? http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_can_yo...hological_liar JD’s continued posting of BS reminds me of this recent series of Dr Phil shows about Matt. http://drphil.com/shows/show/1035 At any rate JD certainly loves to say (I have also seen a JD video interview) and post BS there is little point in confronting him, as it would achieve nothing. If Xjet or anybody else things that JD is going to admit the flaws with XPS well its just not going to happen because in his mind there is nothing wrong with it.

So, are we supposed to "understand" his condition, or put him out of business?

People who lie in this Hobby, especially those selling things, usually wind up being drummed right out of the Hobby, with big black boot marks on their butts as they run away.

[XJet]

	Quote: Originally Posted by KrisW
	People who lie in this Hobby, especially those selling things, usually wind up being drummed right out of the Hobby, with big black boot marks on their butts as they run away.

But I think JD said just a while ago that he's still in the paintball business.

And it's not anyone's job to put anyone out of business -- just redress the balance of hype and deception versus reality.

If it weren't for the FBs, this would be a simple task -- JD would say one thing, others (and Kiwi's tests) would say another. People could review both and make their own minds up.

Unfortunately, the FBs continue to praise Lord JD and keep alleging that the naysayers are simply on the payroll of Futaba or JR and have some kind of personal agenda against their exalted one.

Whenever anyone asks a legitimate question and an objective response, that response usually gets deleted by JD or shouted down by the FBs (chances are that the response I linked to, which simply read " No, they're about the best independent testing we've got at the moment" will have already been deleted by the time you read this).

That's why the "naysayers" maintain a presence -- to establish the balance necessary to keep otherwise uninformed people aware of the facts.

[Kiwi]

OK,

I was at the Nall, I spoke with JD on the Saturday or Friday from memory about a totally different subject. I had no agenda to sit down one one with him and he likely was the same. I dont like beating on a dead horse and there were lots and lots of other better things to do than try to reinvent the XPS system.

As for the system being flown at the Nall.

I think JD had an electric jet that he flew, there where some flying wings that were all up together that were XPS setups but I did not see anything else.

The interesting thing was with 600 pilots registered there was a maximum of 21 radios in the 72Mhz impound. That left a minimum of 579 radios out in the crowd capable of being switched on. In the seven days I was at the field there was not one single shoot down. While I cannot attest to the exact numbers I would have to say that Spektrum looked to be the leader in units on the flight line and FASST running hard behind.

Apart from the four XPS units I did not see any others but there could well have been. As a portion of market share I would say XPS was barely visible on the graph.

As I stated way back in the original posts in this thread. I have no bone to pick with Jim Drew. I just wanted to prove to myself one way or the other if XPS does what they claim. I done that, I shared what I found and the rest is up to the individual.

But the only thing I will say and I mean this from a safe flying perspective.

I would not ever use XPS in its current form for anything I valued or considered as a potential danger to people or friends at my flying locations. It works and there is no doubt about that, but it does not have any of the advantages, other than the ability to find a clear channel on startup, that any of the other Tier one systems have.

My feelings are use it at your own risk, but but be aware it does not hop channels, it has no antenna diversity, it is a less intrinsically safe system compared to JR SPEKTRUM or FASST.

Use your best judgement, the ball is absolutely in the users court with XPS.

[jonkoppisch]

Before it gets deleted...

This is interesting. Taken from the xps site at http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...97#post9820425

	Quote:
	Quote: Originally Posted by bergaliv Seeing that XPS will not provide proof of the claims for "intelligent frequency switching", I have contacted Graupner for clarification of the subject. I have asked for proof of those claims. According to the law in my country(Sweden), any claims from a manufacturer has to be proven to be correct. This is of course more important when safety issues are concerned. Either way, the burden of proof is on the manufacturer, not the customer. The interesting part in this is that I don't have to be a customer to file a formal complaint to the authoritys. Should Graupner fail to provide such evidence, that shows that the system in fact work as advertised, i will file a formal complaint to the authoritys here. This could lead to two things; 1. Graupner/XPS shows how the system works, and that it in fact switch frequency if needed. 2. Graupner/XPS fails to show such evidence, and are then forced to remove any claims that says so. On the second scenario, it will end up in court, with all that goes with that. It should also force Graupner in Europe to take back all systems from customers that so choose. I don't own an XPS/Graupner system, but I was close to buying one. The reason I take this one step further is that it seems like people are getting ripped off. I do not like it when a good company(graupner) try to sell me something based on a lie. I could be wrong, and it's possble that the system works as advertised, but I'm yet to see any proof of that. Let me say it again, In Sweden(and probably in all of Europe) it's the manufacturer that has the burden of proof. If you claim something, you HAVE to show that what you claim is true. Since Mr Jim Drew clearly states that he's system works as advertised, this issue should be very, very, very easy to solve. Just show us that it works as advertised. Again, Graupner has to do this according the Swedish law. There are no "if", "or", or "butt" about it, they are bound by the law. After reading the US law, i know that's the same there, the burden of proof is on the manufacturer, not the customer. So, Mr Jim Drew, no matter how you respond to this, the system will have to prove that it does what you say it will. You either show it here, or Graupner shows it in Swedish court. The Swedish law works like this. I don't have to take it to court my self. There is a departement in Sweden that handles consumers rights, and they will take it to court. I don't even have to file the complaint with my name, i can do it anonymously. I DO think that they will take this to court, due to the fact that we are talking about a system where safety is a major concern, an r/c jet doing 500km/h running without radio control is quite dangerous. I'm posting this in the XPS forum, because I think that XPS should have a fair chance of providing proof before I take it any further. If this post gets deletet, then I have to post similar information somewhere else, where it can't be deleted. It's time to get the facts on the table, there has been to much "he said, you said" on this matter.

[jonkoppisch]

& the results are (after the responses are all deleted)....

	Quote:
	We are not concerned about this, as we know how the system works. We are not ablidged to share exactly how it works as it falls under technology trade secrets, but we certainly can demonstrate it. The very reason for our extreme range is how this works.

[Pale Rider]

LOL--just the answer I expected