Kiwi's XPS test results are up.

[youngflyer]

Jim- can you please post a video of the proof?

[JimDrew]

The videos are posted on RGroups, I believe a link is in our forum there. This was done a little over a year ago if I recall correctly. There were other videos posted prior to ours that showed the spectrum analyzer before a plane took off, and after landing - being on a different frequency from take off. Since v3.0 was released, there have been a lot of videos released comparing the full time hopping differences to the Fasst system.

[Josh Price]

	Quote: Originally Posted by JimDrew
	We were at the Joe Nall 2008, and nobody reported to us any crash there... but we saw numerous Spektrum and one FASST systems crash.

I was there and would love to hear about the Futaba crash you are talking about.

[JimDrew]

A young man (maybe 15 or 16 years old) was flying a large (50cc+) red schemed 3D plane and doing some nice stick work when all of the sudden it locked out and went in. There was some discussion about possible heat issues with the receiver, but after seeing a regulator system being used, I was pretty confident that the power system was the cause. We get reports on a DAILY basis of regulator and switch failures. These failures are caught by our low voltage warning indicator.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by JimDrew
	The upgrade we offer is new firmware with more features. It certainly is not required by any means. We were at the Joe Nall 2008, and nobody reported to us any crash there... but we saw numerous Spektrum and one FASST systems crash. Power is key to successful flights with 2.4GHz. Do a search on RCU for "Spektrum Lockout" and then go look at the majority of the reasons for the crash. You can also find information on what happens to the Spektrum system if it chooses two frequencies that are located next to each other and someone turns on a FPV system. If that had happened in Kiwi's test, it would have shown that unlike our receiver being swamped and control restored by moving it a few feet away from the noise source, the Spektrum would stay locked out. We can not preach power enough. People who purchase all of these name-brand, wiz-bang, power expanders and boxes really need to use a device that tells you the lowest voltage obtained. We have such a device, and there are others. Look at this lockout thread about FASST system. The last message shows a video of what happens when you use some type of electronic switch assembly: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_86..._4/key_/tm.htm If we are considered a "small player" after selling millions of dollars worth of radio systems over the last 4 years, then I am perfectly happy being that small player! With the exception of a small banner Ad on RCGroups, we have not spent a single dime in advertising to get where we are today. We were the first company to release 2.4GHz aircraft modules, long before Spektrum or any other company. Our customers are typically people using 8UAP, 9C, 8103, 9303, Stylus, Vision, Multiplex 3030/4000/EVO, etc. These are all old radio systems and many of these people are still trying to use their original 600mAh Nicad pack with their receivers (and modern servos). This is one of many reasons why we have the fastest reboot time of any 2.4GHz system available, and we also have a low voltage warning system - which some people refuse to believe after spending hundreds of dollars on fancy regulators and other bandaides. When we released our v3.0 firmware which included a low voltage warning, 8 out of 10 customers reported the warning indicator coming on. This indicator occurs when the input voltage to the receiver drops below 4.4v. Although our receivers do not reboot until the voltage falls below 3.2v, under no circumstances in R/C, should the receiver voltage ever fall below 4.8v. Unlike 72MHz systems, 2.4GHz receivers have computers that need power full time or they will reboot. During this reboot time, you have no control. 72Mhz receivers can run on fractions of a volt, and only "glitch" when the power falls nearly to zero volts, with no "reboot" time required.

Can ANYONE back up this claim of FAAST or Spektrum systems crashing due to RADIO FAILURE at the 2008 Joe Nall??

ANYONE????

Please note the alleged "FAAST problems" in the cited thread are due to current draw/insufficient voltage available. The owner of the Jet in question was using the cheaper "Iron Corps" LiFE cells, which are not as good as the top-line A123 (which can handle 30-40C discharge without even blinking). It appears that during high-loads his system is experiencing low-voltage conditions, for whatever reason. . NOT a fault of the FAAST system itself.

Jim. . you do a lot of talking. . but say very little. . .

[Josh Price]

So what your saying is little billy jr has xps and all the cheapest crap he can buy and if he crashes his airplane you will take the blame.
You really need to quit pointing fingers at others and look at yourself. I was there and talked with you in person about maybe getting a system for my 14 mz and you did not have any thing that would work . Thank god. Not because I am saying I would not trust your stuff or anything..... I now see how you run the business. . You sat in your booth and flew not just a whole lot and was even on the flight line for that matter. The odds that you seen this take place with your 14 year old prodigy pilot that has no other reason for his plane to go in but futaba locking up, is probably just a story that helps you sell your stuff and really probably never happened. Trashing other companies by name is bad business man. And slander is a biotch. Remember that.

kinda goes with the saying people should not throw stones that live in a glass house.

you do have one thing right though you do get alot of advertising from threads like this. I have seen kiwi's xps results are up on the resent threads for months now. Yea I have heard rumors about xps this and that for a while and never really paid that much attention to it until now and thought maybe I will read up on it alittle. What I found was some people give the results they collected that were not so much to your liking and you have been in a battle ever since pointing fingers and defending yourself promising people that their test results were wrong or they have the wrong opinion about your company.
Let me be clear on something.. I am not bashing you or XPS. I think you and XPS have great potential and I will be watching thing develope in the future. I just think you are digging this hole and the more people through a dirt in you through twice as much out. Some times you just have to let people have their opinion and role with the punches. this thread would have faded off in the archives of fg if XPS's response was:

though your results are different than ours (and post your testing and results) , we will continue to work hard in developing only the best equipment available. Please consider testing our equipment and in he future and leave us with the challenging of producing equipment that has the technology and quality that can be found only with XPS.

instead you you insist on advertising. the thing you don't see is your advertising the wrong thing.
just my thoughts good luck with XPS as for me I will stay with the FAST system with 100% confidence in its reliability and selflessness leadership.

[Chris F]

	Quote: Originally Posted by FireFighterFSFD
	this thread would have faded off in the archives of fg if XPS's response was: though your results are different than ours (and post your testing and results) , we will continue to work hard in developing only the best equipment available. Please consider testing our equipment and in he future and leave us with the challenging of producing equipment that has the technology and quality that can be found only with XPS. instead you you insist on advertising. the thing you don't see is your advertising the wrong thing. just my thoughts good luck with XPS as for me I will stay with the FAST system with 100% confidence in its reliability and selflessness leadership.

My thoughts exactly! Jim just doesn't understand how to create good will, he is more interested in misleading people. The way XPS is run sends alarm bells ringing for many of us.

[JimDrew]

I am not misleading anyone. I am pointing out the facts and trying to educate people. The AMA has us do a seminar every year at the AMA expo on powering radio systems because we can demostrate all of these various failures to modelers right there in front of them... no smoke and mirrors. The reality is that people have been flying with improper power systems for decades. Now that we have much more strict power requirements due to using computer based receivers, the problem is becoming more obvious (all radio brands). It's hard to convince people that their super-duper $$$ regulator system is junk, but we see reports every single day of regulators, power expanders, power boxes, battery sharing devices, and switches failing. Even the cheap non-A123 batteries will work fine if you don't use all of the junk to interface them to the receiver. Plug the battery straight into the receiver and call it a day. Inconvenient? How inconvenient is shoveling what is left of your $$$ plane into a bag? Seriously, anyone reading this go and do a search on RCU for "2.4GHz lockout" and then go and see what the root cause is nearly every single time - bad power.

[youngflyer]

so your saying that absolutely every 2.4 failure is due to incorrect powering of the system, thats a long stretch, dont you think?

[RH1N0]

YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.

[KrisW]

	Quote: Originally Posted by JimDrew
	I am not misleading anyone. I am pointing out the facts and trying to educate people. The AMA has us do a seminar every year at the AMA expo on powering radio systems because we can demostrate all of these various failures to modelers right there in front of them... no smoke and mirrors. The reality is that people have been flying with improper power systems for decades. Now that we have much more strict power requirements due to using computer based receivers, the problem is becoming more obvious (all radio brands). It's hard to convince people that their super-duper $$$ regulator system is junk, but we see reports every single day of regulators, power expanders, power boxes, battery sharing devices, and switches failing. Even the cheap non-A123 batteries will work fine if you don't use all of the junk to interface them to the receiver. Plug the battery straight into the receiver and call it a day. Inconvenient? How inconvenient is shoveling what is left of your $$$ plane into a bag? Seriously, anyone reading this go and do a search on RCU for "2.4GHz lockout" and then go and see what the root cause is nearly every single time - bad power.

Jim. . has it ever occured to you that we do not CARE about your excuses???? You are NOT going to sell anything to US. . . . .Really, you won't. We aren't that gullible.

Please go peach to your choir.. . not here.

[Julez]

	Quote: Originally Posted by JimDrew
	[]Now that we have much more strict power requirements due to using computer based receivers, the problem is becoming more obvious (all radio brands).[]

Concerning the low voltage issue:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...66#post7753366
XPS does not only have little headroom, but it also synchronizes the servo outputs.
This means, that all servos begin to move at exactly the same time.
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/bhabbott/Servo.html
This way, the current demand peaks of all servos are also synchronized. The resulting large current surge contributes to the problem.
Almost all other systems sequence the servo outputs, and spread the load over a time, insted of concentrating it.
The only other system despite XPS synchronizing the servo output is Spektrum.
And, you might have guessed it, per default people blame every malfunction on a "bad" RX battery, even when the very same setup has worked just fine before.
See a pattern here?
It is a myth that 2.4GHz systems all need more juice than MHz systems.
This has only been claimed by one or two manufacturers, whose systems really need more juice than the rest.
I for one consider it a valuable feature that my system of choice does not need a better power supply than usual.
First with Fasst, and now with Jeti, I can fly the RX packs I have used before, as they do not reboot above 2.9V.
In fact, I have even switched to using single LiIon cells on some light planes, and it works out great so far.

[Fish07]

	Quote: Originally Posted by JimDrew
	A young man (maybe 15 or 16 years old) was flying a large (50cc+) red schemed 3D plane and doing some nice stick work when all of the sudden it locked out and went in. There was some discussion about possible heat issues with the receiver, but after seeing a regulator system being used, I was pretty confident that the power system was the cause. We get reports on a DAILY basis of regulator and switch failures. These failures are caught by our low voltage warning indicator.

DUDE your full of S!!!!!
i have been watching this tread for some time didn't add to the discussion because Julz finds me annoying. but anyway hello to all and Happy New year !!!
About a year and half lost a nice 50cc because i believed on the claim that it realy did FH.after i sold all my XPS BS ,got me a 10c have 25 planes no problem at all -i don't know how you dare to Name Futaba ,who has patented there FH since 1997.were i fly ,even guys who started with spectrum have change to Fasst.i think your a fish out of water !!!!!

Mr drew go sell used cars ,i think that's your real TRADE!!!

[dirtybird]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Julez
	Concerning the low voltage issue: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...66#post7753366 XPS does not only have little headroom, but it also synchronizes the servo outputs. This means, that all servos begin to move at exactly the same time. http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/bhabbott/Servo.html This way, the current demand peaks of all servos are also synchronized. The resulting large current surge contributes to the problem. Almost all other systems sequence the servo outputs, and spread the load over a time, insted of concentrating it. The only other system despite XPS synchronizing the servo output is Spektrum. And, you might have guessed it, per default people blame every malfunction on a "bad" RX battery, even when the very same setup has worked just fine before. See a pattern here? It is a myth that 2.4GHz systems all need more juice than MHz systems. This has only been claimed by one or two manufacturers, whose systems really need more juice than the rest. I for one consider it a valuable feature that my system of choice does not need a better power supply than usual. First with Fasst, and now with Jeti, I can fly the RX packs I have used before, as they do not reboot above 2.9V. In fact, I have even switched to using single LiIon cells on some light planes, and it works out great so far.

The frame rate of asynchronous systems is usually about 20MS. A servo does not move much in 20MS. For all practical purposes there will be no difference in the effect of a current surge between a synchronous and asynchronous system.
A 2,4 GHZ system does not need more juice than a MHZ system but needs a constant voltage to keep the microprocessor happy. A MHZ system does not have a microprocessor. It will work with a very low voltage. You will not notice a current surge with a MHZ system as the servos do not slow down that much.
When I worked in circuit design, there was an axiom that you did not drive electric motors from a regulated supply. The internal resistance of the regulator could cause the motor to burn out when it tried to start.
Good luck with those LiIon cells. Some of those have very high internal resistance

[Julez]

	Quote:
	The frame rate of asynchronous systems is usually about 20MS. A servo does not move much in 20MS. For all practical purposes there will be no difference in the effect of a current surge between a synchronous and asynchronous system.

I beg to differ.
Analog servos work like this: They recieve the pulse from the RX with the length "a". The internal poti makes a circuit create a pulse with the lenght "b". Should "a" and "b" not be equal, the electric motor will be given a current pulse with a lenght "c", that will depend on the difference of "a" and "b".
Logically, the current pulse will always start at the same time, after the RX pulse has been recieved. Thus, when the RX puts out the pulses synchronously, the current pulses of the connected servos will also appear synchronously, which leads to load spikes.

When it comes to digital servos, the continous current draw is not so important, as the PWM does not depend on the RX pulses. What counts here, is the current surge that every electric motor has when it accelerated from a standstill. These surges are synchronized, when the RX signals are.

	Quote:
	Good luck with those LiIon cells. Some of those have very high internal resistance

They sure have. But in case of any problems, my telemetry will warn me.