Problems!! 14MZ 2.4 R6014FS

[Julez]

	Quote: Originally Posted by ole
	I have read every post in this thread fro the last week or so. (slow reader) I am sure that a guy at Futaba could figure out there was or was not a problem within 1 hour of reading any one of these posts. And from all the people that have reproduced this on the ground, I believe there must be an issue here. So for the sake of argument, There is some issue with the RX most likely a heat related problem, or heat related restriction. So I am sure that an engineer reproduced it, then had his fellow engineers try it, and they reproduced it. They went and talked to their team lead, and he asked for verification. The team lead took this info to his manager, and the manager asked for more clarification and testing. After this testing they found that the failure is in a part they buy from another company, at the cost of $ 0.50 per RX. So here you have a problem, are all components bad, or just a batch of them. If all, quicker solution all are bad, or if just a batch. How do you tell what is good and what is bad. Yet you have another problem. Any crash on a warm day running this new 2.4 Futaba RX should not be a cost to the end user, but a cost to Futaba, and Futaba does not like buying fire wood. Also any RX already sent out should be recalled, and no one likes to send out free stuff and pay shipping. So even if there is a problem. Futaba corporate is looking for existing documentation or other type of information that would make this a documented limitation on existing RX. So the problem was and end user problem for using it outside the temperature limits of the RX. And if the component was form another company. Does that company have enough funds to help offset the cost of the recall, or the cost that should be paid to a crashed aircraft owner. And I am sure most corporate lawyers would like to make sure any statement is released properly, with minimal damage to the company. I am sure the Engineer at Futaba just wanted to say. Yep there is a problem, but is not allowed to do so. Yet this is just a Hobby, so the solution is simple. Put the RX in a place where it will receive good air flow from the prop if at all possible but not the heat of the engine, so it will cool on the ground after starting. Also exit vents should be twice the intake vents for good airflow. And put it in a place where the 2 antenna are located as recommended. Cover your airplane with a towel or something when sitting out in the sun. Fly and have fun.

errr...you did read that the responsible component was already indentified?
It took me about 40min to reveal that the transciever is rated to 60°C.
And I had nothing to start with; Futaba just has to dig through all their datasheets and find the part with the lowest temperature rating.
I guess the problem is, that the whole RX design depends on this transciever, which cannot be replaced all of a sudden.
The behaviour some of us see is normal, not a fault. Exceed the specs limits, and you have a failure.

[DR10044]

	Quote: Originally Posted by skymaster68
	has anyone had problens using 14 MZ 2.4 and JR servos?

Not so far, running 8711's.

[Jurgen Heilig]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Julez
	errr...you did read that the responsible component was already indentified? It took me about 40min to reveal that the transciever is rated to 60°C. And I had nothing to start with; Futaba just has to dig through all their datasheets and find the part with the lowest temperature rating. ...

Hi Julez,

could you please check for components which fail at even lower temperatures? You know I started a thread on RC-Network about potential heat issues with 2.4GHz systems. Two models crashed last weekend wit R608FS on board. During ground tests, three R608FS failed at just 45°C (=113°F).

Jürgen

[DR10044]

With Nall getting ready to go full steam, we may find out if this is a major problem or not.

[jonkoppisch]

Exactly what I was thinking!!! Along with all of the other 2.4 systems as well... Although, from the weather outlook, they may not get used as much as usual..

[Flyfalcons]

We'll get to see how FASST and Spektrum both perform in tornados!

[diamondave5]

i was thinking some people said to just mount the reciever not under the canopy, well mine failed in arizona in late april, and it was pretty far down in the plane under a dark tinted canopy, how do we know that come mid june they wont fail in any location in the plane?? i think we should encourage a solution to the flaw rather than masking over it, i realize any part can fail without a warning sometimes, but this is what seems to be a known issue now, why take that chance, they shouldnt be bought, sold, or used in this current condition, its only going to take one time and someone can actually get hurt, this hobby is supposed to be relatively safe, its not motor cross or sky diving, something like that with a higher danger factor, imo these things arent safe to the general public, yeh some people could install fans and things like that, but what about the guy that just buys this thing, doenst see all these posts, puts it in the plane just like he has his pcm's for the past 5 years, and then something goes wrong, not good...something is clearly different internally(other than the obvious stuff) than that of previous futaba recievers, both pcm and older fm, just thinking out loud here

[grayuk]

Put a canopy floor in, paint it white and make sure the rx is under it.
You need to isolate the radiant heated air from the rest of the plane.
Ambient temps are not hot enough to make the rx fail.
As has been said, the hottest day recorded anywhere was 57C (Africa).
If the rx is rated to 60C then that might just cause it to fail..
The failure is caused by radiant energy being concentrated by the canopy and heating the air/objects within and forcing temps higher than ambient (70C and above).
Without radiant energy a non-heat producing item cannot exceed ambient.
When the rx is turned on it does produce some heat which will raise its temp to around 5C above ambient (see previous posts).
Having said all that I still think that Futaba need to look at this, but I am sure if you do the above you will not see a failure. Try it, all you have to gain is some flying time!

Paul

[Jurgen Heilig]

	Quote: Originally Posted by DR10044
	With Nall getting ready to go full steam, we may find out if this is a major problem or not.

Hopefully there won't be a problem. Event Organizers and pilots should be aware by now about potential temperature issues. Some blankets and/or sun umbrellas should provide enough protection.

Jürgen

[DR10044]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig
	Hopefully there won't be a problem. Event Organizers and pilots should be aware by now about potential temperature issues. Some blankets and/or sun umbrellas should provide enough protection. Jürgen

I was hoping it would hit the high 80's this year with full sun, but it does not look like that is going to happen. If it does, and there are no issues, with pilots taking the normal steps we all do that Jurgen referenced above. I think we would all feel a lot better about the reported heat problems. And, if there are issues, it would drive home the problem and possibly bring it to a conclusion, one way or the other, just like QQ's crash helped move the brown out problem recognition and solution forward last year.

[Cherokee Jim]

Hello All,

Most of our radios are made using Consumer Grade electronic components which means the max working range is -40C (-40F) to +85C (185F). The actual product operating temperature range would be much less than this for reliability . Just because a component spec sheet says its upper temp limit is 85C does not mean you will be able to realistically use it at that temp - take a resistor for example, it can be rated at 85C but if you look at the derating curve of its allowed power dissipation verses temperature you may see that at 85c is it is rated for Zero power dissipation - Not very useful.

Most of these temperature problems will go away if one ensures there is proper ventilation , moving air around the servo and receiver. The same is true of regulators, you can have as big a heat sink as you want but you have to provide a way to move the heat out, air flow!

For warm/Hot weather flying:

1. Provide a path for moving cooling air around your electronics.

2. Do not place your electronics where they would be in direct sun light.

3. If you are flying a Turbine place thermo insulation between heat source and electronics.

4. If you live in a hot place learn to like light colored aircraft.

5. try to create some kind of sun shade for your air craft while they are sitting on the ground.

6. If you are flying electrics the flow of cooling air is even more important.

7. If anyone tells you these precautions are not important - Don't Listen to Them!

Happy Flying,
Cherokee Jim

[Judge]

One other thought. It's a bit of a PITA, but what about taking the hatch cover/canopy off between flights to let the inside vent to atmosphere? This way the solar oven has no chance to get going. And you can cover the insides with a towel too.

Just a thought.

[zzw26n]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Judge
	One other thought. It's a bit of a PITA, but what about taking the hatch cover/canopy off between flights to let the inside vent to atmosphere? This way the solar oven has no chance to get going. And you can cover the insides with a towel too. Just a thought.

C'mon Judge, I expect more out you then the above suggestion. No one wants to remove and replace their Hatch-Canopy five times a day. I'll Fly Futaba 72mhz this year, but .... several Members at my Club have switched to the dark-side and I can't blame them.

[crhammond]

I agree with all the suggestions here as being good advice and normal operating procedure. I can't say I have ever exactly followed it because it is just not that hot where I live except for maybe 1 or 2 weeks a year. (and we don't fly because we are too busy complaining we are melting and about to die from heat as we have -20c for a good part of the year HA HA.)

However, the fact remains that this was not a problem with previous equipment and is not a problem (at least none has been reported) with other brands.

I am happily flying my 6014/608/617's now and keeping the canopy covered up when it is sunny outside. Following "normal procedures" should do it for me. None of my planes have canopy floors - but I plan to add them this weekend. They are all ARF's (high-end but ARF's) and in planes I have built I always cut out the floors to save some weight. It was just never an issue before. I guess if I flew somewhere hot all the time I would already have been told by more experienced flyers to cover the floor.

There is also a conflict because having a floor makes it hard to get the Rx and antennas up into the canopy for good signal reception. I know most people don't have an issue with the Rx's burried inside the plane - but best practices for all 2.4 systems has been to get the antennas up high in the fuse away from fuel tank/engine/pipes etc.

I just think Futaba should at least post an advisory saying what has already been stated above as common sense. Acknowledge that there is a potential for heat issues and that you need to keep the Rx's out of the sun, canopy covered up, good ventalation etc. A fix would be even better but at the very least they should have officially acknowleded that there is a potential issue by now and alerted people. Just my 2c. Not everyone is on the web - they should at least let the hobby shops know so they can pass the word. I expected more from them after having 3 weeks to at least post a notice. They were pretty fast on the 2.7v item.

I used to equate Futaba quality with Toyota quality. If you are wondering about Toyota service just search the web for what they are doing for 1995 - 2000 Tundras with rust issues. Now THAT is service.

[DR10044]

As a 25+ year Futaba customer, I have the reasonable expectation that each like product that I buy has the same or better operational parameters of the previous product it is replacing. That is my view and expectation as a customer. I would say that is Futaba's or any manufacturer's intent as well. If this product is not performing as good or better than the previous like product, I can't believe they will not correct the situation. In fact, being this is their flag ship product, it will be suicide not to do so. I believe once they figure out what the problem is, they will correct it. If is the only logical action they can take.
Until then, I will take all the normal steps to keep the heat down inside my planes and some not so normal ones until the problem is corrected. That is the only logical thing to do right now.