IMAC/Pattern combo ???

[Temptation]

O.k. guys, I started talking about this on another thread, and it started to get off subject. I didn't want to hijack the other thread so here we are.

I have been thinking about an IMAC/Pattern combo contest for quite awhile now. Since both organizations are basically doing the same job but using different tools to do so, I think we could have a contest where both organizations competed in the same classes at the same contest, but with both types of aircraft.

In a nut shell, this contest would be designed in a way that IMAC legal, and NSRCA legal 2 meter pattern planes would compete against each other in the same classes. This event would be designed in a way that the chosen aircraft would not give anymore of an advantage as one would have competing in an IMAC contest against other IMAC planes, and the same goes for the 2 meter pattern planes.

This would be an annual event and would most likely have to be an invitational event. I see this as being closely related to the Tucson Shootout in the sense that we would have more than one class competing. This event would still be able to have a freestyle event, even with the pattern planes. A pattern plane can be built with larger control surfaces, that would be completley 3D capable. The freestyle event would most likely need to be optional due to the fact that there is not a whole lot of 3D capable pattern planes out there right now that would put up a fair fight with a 40% IMAC plane. This doesn't mean that a pilot that competed in the aerobatics portion of the contest with a pattern plane couldn't compete in the freestyle with an IMAC plane.

In an event like this we would be able to take the best of both IMAC and the NSRCA and combine them into one major event.

This is an event that would be capable of drawing major sponsorship, which would in turn draw high caliber pilots. I believe that combining the IMAC and pattern pilots in one event would be a great service to r/c in all aspects. Both organizations are great, and combining them would make one very great and unique event.

This type of event would require a lot of planning. New class names would need to be decided upon, new sequences would need to be designed, and most importantly, new judging criteria would need to be created. The reason these three things would need to be redesigned is that the two organizations do not align with each other very well in those aspects. They are close enough though that it wouldn't be much of a burden on the pilots to adjust to this new type of contest.

An event of this caliber is not something that one person can put on. This would require a team effort, and I believe here at the Flying Giants we have the best team in the world. Right now this is just my idea, but if others like the idea, they could expand on it, and together we would be able to create a new type of competition that would benefit the r/c world greatly. Everybody...even those that do not have an interest in competion would benefit from an event of this caliber. Reason is, an event like this would bring new technolgy to the r/c world that everybody could use.

So first lets use this thread to decide if this is even a good idea. Second lets figure out if this is even possible. That decision would be based off of the amount of interest. I truely believe this is possible, and I can't think of anybody more capable to tackle such an event more that the Flying Giants.

Another important thing that would need to be figured out would be where would an event like this be held? I would think that Tripple Tree, or the AMA Headquarters would be two good locations to consider. The only problem I see with that is it would be difficult to draw pilots from the west coast, or even worse yet the rest of the world. Maybe I am thinking to big right now, but only time will tell.

So, what do you guys think or

May the discussions begin.

Thank you,

Mike Darr

[Boulder]

Well Mike,

It sounds like you've been doing some thinking!! I like it!!!!

I wouldn't sorry about the location, as far as not being centralized, the Shootout brings them in from all over, as does the Nall.

The concept WILL work, and I'm assuming both groups of competitors would be willing to work together to make this a reality. Obviously this isn't going to happen overnight, but 2007 isn't out of reach, do you think?

I'm behind it, sounds like fun!!!

[DKnippen]

Mike,
Is this Pattern vs. Pattern or Pattern vs Imac. That wouldn't work I feel just because of the Judging and the difference in the way the Imac and Pattern planes fly. But it would be nice to see what both sides are doing at the same event. Whether Scale or Pattern it's still aerobatics. This would need a couple of qualified CDs to run a contest like this.
Dan

[notorious_benny]

At the Scae Aerobatics Masters here in Australia Frazer Briggs was talking about how they hold a huge national event (like 5 days or something) in New Zealand with three different flying sites about 20 km apart.

On one of the fields they hold a will fly a morning of pattern running two flight lines and then an afternoon of IMAC etc......... it sounds like it works well for them

[Temptation]

Dan,

This would be an event where pattern and IMAC planes are competing in the same class for the same prize. Reread my post. All of your questions are answered in there.

Mike Darr

[DKnippen]

Mike,
Just the word " new Judging criteria" would take years for both pattern and Imac too agree upon. If your not in a hurry It could happen. Not trying to be a party pooper but Imac and Pattern although still aerobatics are both very different in the planes as well as there flying presentation. Pattern plane are on rails, scale aerobatic planes even with the 10% deviation and a little cheat here and there are not.
I'm for your idea but take all the notes
Dan

[Temptation]

Dan,

I thought about your question a little more. I apologize if my explanation of what I am thinking of was confusing.

This is not pattern vs. IMAC.

Imagine this...I show up at an IMAC contest with my 2 meter pattern plane. I enter Basic class (legally that's all I can do with a pattern plane). Now I am competing with the IMAC guys in the same class for the same prize.

Now in order for my idea to work at the level I am thinking about, there would need to be new rules established for this contest. It would not be an IMAC or Pattern contest. It would be an IMAC/pattern combo contest. We would take the best of the two organizations and combine them. It will be necessary to establish new rules in place of the ones that would not fit both sides. It would be necessary to establish a rules committee that would consist of IMAC and pattern pilots, to make sure that everybodies needs are met, and we have a fun and fair contest.

As for freestyle...that would not need to be changed much...if at all. The only thing that may be necessary to change would be the pattern planes. They just don't have the control surface area to do the job. Now a purpose built 3D pattern plane could be built and used. In fact, a guy could just build a set of 3D wings and stabs for his 2 meter bird, then swap them out for the freestyle. He could also use an IMAC plane for the freestyle. Freestyle would also be optional, and would not affect the precision aerobatic portion of the contest.

Now don't get me wrong, there are definitley a lot of things that would need to be worked out in order for an event like this to work. I really think it would be a lot of fun, and great for the hobby.

Keep the questions and ideas coming. Let's just keep in mind that this is not IMAC vs. pattern. It is pilot vs. pilot.

Mike Darr

[Temptation]

	Quote: Originally Posted by kennyandannie
	Well Mike, It sounds like you've been doing some thinking!! I like it!!!! I wouldn't sorry about the location, as far as not being centralized, the Shootout brings them in from all over, as does the Nall. The concept WILL work, and I'm assuming both groups of competitors would be willing to work together to make this a reality. Obviously this isn't going to happen overnight, but 2007 isn't out of reach, do you think? I'm behind it, sounds like fun!!!

Ken,

As far as the location I agree with you. I guess if it is an invational contest it shouldn't be a problem. If someone was unable to make it due to traveling distance, it would be necessary to take the next alternate.

As for 2007 I don't think it is out of reach if a lot of people are interested. If the numbers are not that high at first, 2008 may be the earliest it would be able to happen.

As far as competitors from both sides making it work. Same answer as when it would be possible for it to happen. I believe that is all hinged on how many people are interested.

Mike Darr

[sweetpea]

I like the idea........one judge is pattern guy, other judge is Imac.....that way each washes the other out.

Biggest problem.......pattern guys can't fly as long as the big gas guys. In pattern you takeoff after the other guy lands. Slows things up a little.



Question......if I fly both pattern and IMAC can I compete in both during the contest? Even if I'm in the same class with both?

[BreadBowl]

I think that's a great idea Mike. I would be interested in seeing something like that come to fruition.

[Temptation]

	Quote: Originally Posted by sweetpea
	I like the idea........one judge is pattern guy, other judge is Imac.....that way each washes the other out. Biggest problem.......pattern guys can't fly as long as the big gas guys. In pattern you takeoff after the other guy lands. Slows things up a little. Question......if I fly both pattern and IMAC can I compete in both during the contest? Even if I'm in the same class with both?

I have thought about the judging issue a lot. I am sure there will be some bias, that is hard to eleminate at a normal contest now. That is something that will require some more thought.

Pattern planes can actually fly for 12 to 20 minutes. I see how that could be a concern. That would need to be taken into consideration when the new sequences for this event are made up. How does that work in IMAC right now. Are you saying that the next pilot in the flight order can take off before the other guy lands?

Sorry, I don't fully understand your question on double entry. That can create concerns with flight orders at times. For example, you have to fly at both flight lines at the same time. Are you asking if you can switch between an IMAC plane and a pattern plane from one round to the next in the same class? If so, I don't think that would be a problem. That shouldn't be looked at any differnt that switching to a back up plane now. Remember IMAC and pattern planes in this event would be flying together as if they were all IMAC or all pattern planes. The aircraft are being treated equal in this event.

If I didn't answer your question let me know. I will do my best to get you an answer. Also, no rules have been established yet. So far this is just an idea in my head. These are all good questions. If this actaully ends up getting a go sign, then there will be a rules committee put together. This is why all of the questions are good, because it will be the rules committe to come up with the answers for them all.

This is why I don't see something like this being put together in enough time to hold it in 2007. There are just to many things to figure out, and organize. Then it all needs to be comunicated to all contestants in a manner that they don't get confused.

I think so far people are looking at this as a IMAC vs. Pattern contest. That is not what it is. I think that is an automatic thought as soon as you see the two organizations together. That is something I hope to cure with an event like this. I think both organizations are great, and could benefit from one another. That's what this is really all about.

Keep em coming.

Mike Darr

[Temptation]

	Quote: Originally Posted by ryansmith
	I think that's a great idea Mike. I would be interested in seeing something like that come to fruition.

Thank you Ryan,

I think a lot of people will be interested once the message gets cleared up. It can get confusing very easily. I also think a lot of people won't think that is a very good idea, but that will happen with anything we do.

If you have any ideas let me know. I am all ears.

Thanks,

Mike Darr

[dmichael]

Mike,

Neat idea- How about this- an IMAC/Pattern contest that required contestants to fly both their IMAC plane and their Pattern plane.

For example:

Day 1
Round 1- 2 IMAC sequences with and IMAC plane
Round 2- 2 Pattern sequences with a Pattern plane
Round 3- 2 IMAC sequences with an IMAC plane

Day 2
Round 4- 2 Pattern sequences with a Pattern plane
Round 5- 1 Unknown sequence with and IMAC plane
Round 6- 1 Unknown sequence with a Pattern plane

Optional Freestyle

I'd sign up for that! in fact, this was discussed a bit on the pattern list a while back and there was some interest.

Dave Michael

[Temptation]

	Quote: Originally Posted by DKnippen
	Mike, Just the word " new Judging criteria" would take years for both pattern and Imac too agree upon. If your not in a hurry It could happen. Not trying to be a party pooper but Imac and Pattern although still aerobatics are both very different in the planes as well as there flying presentation. Pattern plane are on rails, scale aerobatic planes even with the 10% deviation and a little cheat here and there are not. I'm for your idea but take all the notes Dan

Dan, I agree. Judging criteria would be established, and that would be the way it is. I have flown a lot of 40% planes, and I'll tell you what. In my opinion some of them have flown better than pattern planes. I'm not saying thats the answer, but I don't think they are as far apart as one may think. But, yes that would definitley need to be taken into consideration. It would be important to have IMAC and pattern guys develop the judging criteria. In all honesty, if you put all IMAC guys in a room to decide on judging criteria you wouldn't have everybody agree there either, and the same goes for pattern.

Thank you for the comments, it is all important, and need answers. You are not the only one that would ask your question. This is why an answer would be needed. This may never even come to life for the simple fact that we may not have enough people agree on what's important.

Keep em coming. Thanks again,

Mike Darr

[Temptation]

	Quote: Originally Posted by dmichael
	Mike, Neat idea- How about this- an IMAC/Pattern contest that required contestants to fly both their IMAC plane and their Pattern plane. For example: Day 1 Round 1- 2 IMAC sequences with and IMAC plane Round 2- 2 Pattern sequences with a Pattern plane Round 3- 2 IMAC sequences with an IMAC plane Day 2 Round 4- 2 Pattern sequences with a Pattern plane Round 5- 1 Unknown sequence with and IMAC plane Round 6- 1 Unknown sequence with a Pattern plane Optional Freestyle I'd sign up for that! in fact, this was discussed a bit on the pattern list a while back and there was some interest. Dave Michael

Dave,

Very cool idea. I would enjoy that also. Would the sequences be the same throught all rounds, even though we are switching between pattern and IMAC planes?

The only issue I see with that is there may not be enough pilots that have both IMAC and pattern planes. I could be wrong though.

Thanks,

Mike Darr