100cc planes

[BTerry]

Believe what you want Jake.

In any given range it is more telling than any other single number. Since we are discussing a very small size range I believe it is completely appropriate. This is CUBIC loading, not just wing loading. It effectively nondimensionalizes the scale, to allow comparisons. Cubic loading is ounces/((wing area)^1.5).

All the planes I listed are "bigger and fly better", within a few inches of length and span and within a few percentage in wing area.

A Dalton 42% Extra 260 will be around 7.3 in cubic loading. This standardizes the number.

[sinergy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by wildhare
	Another very real problem is people posting reports who have a vested interest in the success or failure of an aircraft design or company. Far too many statements are made where people have either a financial or emotional interest in the outcome. Some people actually lie (I know, you're all shocked to hear this) about results or about their identities in order to sell or to discourage the sale of planes. So guys, just don't listen to flight reports. Most of them are wrong or at least incomplete, you can't possibly know a plane unless you own it and fly it until it's as good as it can get. TF

I 100% agree with the trimming.. this affects all planes.

The quoted statement above rings funny too me "emotional interest in the outcome" I think you just called out your #1 supporter.

Brand is a funny thing, some follow hype, some find their way through trial and error, however some just drive fords or chevy all their life.

I personally have 100s of flights on all of my WH planes except for 2, I sold my 80" Yak after 20 flights and only got 2 flights on my Giles.

The lieing part I am sure is true - however I personally have no direct ties to any plane manufacturer.

[sinergy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by BTerry
	Believe what you want Jake. In any given range it is more telling than any other single number. Since we are discussing a very small size range I believe it is completely appropriate. This is CUBIC loading, not just wing loading. It effectively nondimensionalizes the scale, to allow comparisons. Cubic loading is ounces/((wing area)^1.5). All the planes I listed are "bigger", within a few inches of length and span and within a few percentage in wing area.

Very well, however the airfoil, width of the fuse, amount of side area, wing / stab placement have a good amount of input on how it's going to fly as well.

[BTerry]

Yes, all of those matter and all of the top 20 or so 100cc planes on the market fly very well.

Funny how this thread turned into a love fest/bashing session for two planes that are not even listed in the original poll.

[sinergy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by BTerry
	Yes, all of those matter and all of the top 20 or so 100cc planes on the market fly very well.

Agreed

	Quote: Originally Posted by BTerry
	Funny how this thread turned into a love fest/bashing session for two planes that are not even listed in the original poll.

Ya that is true, however Pat was on the first page offering another option, and the 3rd page giving 2 product updates and saying his option was cheaper.

I chimed in only because someone said something about the more expensive planes weren't worth the money, which clearly I strongly disagree with.


Let's face it, if there wasn't this much passion in the hobby it would be boring

[BTerry]

	Quote: Originally Posted by sinergy
	The lieing part I am sure is true - however I personally have no direct ties to any plane manufacturer.

Really? http://tinyurl.com/9m2qn6

I didn't realize that Pat isn't allowed to express his own opinion on airplanes he paid full-price for using his own money, although said airplanes cost him less of his own money than some others would. I must have missed that FG rule somewhere, I will check the posting rules again.

Thank you for keeping him in check. He must be stopped! As must anybody else who suggests a plane that saves the consumer money, such as the Magic Hand 103" Yak (now $699 shipped at Troybuilt btw) or the Richmodels 100cc Extra 260 ($427.50 + ~$150 shipping from ak-models.com, including a 10% off coupon) or the Somenzini 101" Yak ($649 + $59 hardware + ~$150 shipping).

[Tired Old Man]

Jake,

I've clearly put off responding to your crap in this thread for too long. Your previous statement below.

"I want to revisit one fact here, I have nothing against wildhare (owned many and recommend it often). I just get irritated when people like Pat start making comments about price and how awesome they are. I don't think Pat has purchased another highend brand in years to go through the build and spend some time flying it like his WHs. "

First, I bought a Dawghouse Yak at Toledo while I was there with Tom. Before that I bought a 33% World Models Cub. Since then I've acquired an H-9 46% Ultimate. I bought a Comp Arf 2.6m Yak 55sp in there somewhere as well. Matter of fact, you can see that Yak beside my new W/H Edge if you wanted to visit the W/H site.

That should take care of the not buying anything statement.

I buy my stuff from Wild Hare. I don't get free planes from people like Extreme Flight. Probably becasue I'm not a moderator on RCU and can't lend the implied support of an R/C blog site by having that title in my avitar. Seems like the open G.S. forum over there is now pretty much dedicated to promoting EF, PAU, and OMP. The number of shills posting and supporting each make of product is quite obvious. You can tell by how frequently they bump the threads back up to the top. Always the same people from the same geographical area.

As to cost differential. Should you elect to buy the stuff ground up from W/H, using a 35% plane for an example, you can obtain the kit, the engine, the hardware, the servos, the batteries, switches, have carbon wing tubes as part of the standard package, only have to hinge 1/2 the rudder, have a completed canopy and hatch out of the box, and do all that for less than $2,100.00. The 28% planes for less than that by a bunch.

As for buying an EF plane, which you promote since you get them for free (you told me so, remember), I can, and have, worked with and flown EF planes owned by others. As often as I want to. I was again out with two people that own 88" EF Yaks last weekend. I have flown both their planes, and flown them hard. Why buy one when you can fly someone elses for free? Perhaps you don't feel I can see well enough to determine levels of quality?

With one the only thing it did better than my 28% v2 Edge was slow flight. Even the owner of the Yak said my Edge out turned and out tumbled his Yak on previous days out. The other EF Yak owner would like to buy my Edge from me. I think that says a lot, don't you? The 88" EF Yak is a good flying plane, don't get me wrong. I even enjoy flying it. But I like the way the 84" Edge flys better.

Now if you would like to talk to people like Taurus, BME, and RCGF you would find out I also pay for the engines I have. I pay the same as most everyone else for radio equipment too. I have DA and 3W as well but I obtained them 2nd hand. My Brisons I bought new and at retail.

So if there's any favoritism being provided, I have a feeling that would be coming from those getting free product or those paid to promote a product like the dealers and sponsored fliers in some other RCU Giant Scale threads. Now there was a new OMP thread started over there the other day that was originally posted by a another moderator, but shortly thereafter the moderator pulled his name off of the thread and someone else took over as the thread starter.

As for kit costs, there is very little difference in wholesale costs between one 28 to 30% kit and another. How do I know? I almost bought a major kit distributor not long ago and I know what the costs are. Hardware can add a couple of dollars but at Chinese pricing that difference is not $100.00 or more. I know what that stuff costs as well.

Any idiot can figure out that someone that does not have a dealer network can sell for less. The distributor with a dealer network has to make his profit. So either he sells the product for less to the dealer so the dealer can mark up for more profit, or he sells for the same and lets the dealer add on to his cost plus base profit price. Now if that distributor elected not to undersell his dealers his profit would be even higher on product that was bought from him direct. Middle men add to the cost structure of a product, period.

I do believe that moderators in any RC forum should not be able to actively promote products. That lends quite a bit of free and unfair advertising advantage to the importer receiving the service.

[cjcyclesrc]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Tired Old Man
	But I like the way the 84" Edge flys better.

That's cool. Not everyone likes the same thing. One of my best friends (littlecrankshaft) loved his V1 Edge. The new owner likes the V2 I built. I'm sure I would have made friends with it if I would have kept it long enough. One thing I did like on it better than the EF is the Cowl ring. Overall I prefer EF planes myself. Chris is located close to where my parents live, so I can stop by and visit when I go home to visit my parents. When I went home the last time for Christmas we even went out and flew. I think he is a pretty cool guy (I hope that didn't sound gay) and an awesome pilot.


Can anyone let me in on the secret of how to get all this free stuff everyone's talking about? I would even be happy to fly a WH if it was free.

[Tired Old Man]

Nothing's for free. There's always some price that will be paid for stuff. It may be money, it may be advertising, it may be worse, but there will be a price paid.

I have never spoken directly to, or met Chris. Only text stuff but he seems like good people. People have different preferences based upon what they feel is important. Chris makes very good planes but most of those from W/H better meet my preferences. A very large majority of the people that have bought them seem to share similar preferences. There are those that have not but they managed to find something they liked better somewehere else. That's all good, right?


Jake,

It was a little over a year ago that you managaed to chase Ralph Cunningham (RC Ignition) off of RCU. Am I to suppose I'm the next target on your hit list?

Pat

[cjcyclesrc]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Tired Old Man
	Nothing's for free. There's always some price that will be paid for stuff. It may be money, it may be advertising, it may be worse, but there will be a price paid.

If that price was test flying the crap out of a plane, bringing it out to fun fly's and flying the crap out it, letting other people who are interested look at it/fly it, sending in some pictures of it, helping others set theirs up, then I would be in.
:censored:, I've been advertising for Free. Ahh, who cares I enjoy it.

[sinergy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by BTerry
	Really? http://tinyurl.com/9m2qn6 I didn't realize that Pat isn't allowed to express his own opinion on airplanes he paid full-price for using his own money, although said airplanes cost him less of his own money than some others would. I must have missed that FG rule somewhere, I will check the posting rules again. Thank you for keeping him in check. He must be stopped! As must anybody else who suggests a plane that saves the consumer money, such as the Magic Hand 103" Yak (now $699 shipped at Troybuilt btw) or the Richmodels 100cc Extra 260 ($427.50 + ~$150 shipping from ak-models.com, including a 10% off coupon) or the Somenzini 101" Yak ($649 + $59 hardware + ~$150 shipping).

Umm I fail to see why because I did a review on a plane I am lieing. I have done other reviews if you search by name and I have no ties to them either.

I was at Huckfest 2 years ago and got a chance for some time on the EF Extra prototype before they were even shipping the first batch. That was in Oct. the first batch came in like Feb if I recall correctly. It was at that point in time I had my heart set on buying one. I feel in love with it right away.

I got lucky as was asked to do a review on it. As a reviewer I get asked to do reviews, I can either say yes or I can say no. It is a choice and I wasn't going to say no to a plane I was already planning on buying.


You guys are way too funny looking for a conspiracity that doesn't exist.. I jumped on the EF train based on my own principles. I believe in the product 100% so I back it plain and simple. I just happen to be more outspoken about it and magically there is something going on behind the scenes.

[sinergy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Tired Old Man
	Jake, I've clearly put off responding to your crap in this thread for too long. Your previous statement below. "I want to revisit one fact here, I have nothing against wildhare (owned many and recommend it often). I just get irritated when people like Pat start making comments about price and how awesome they are. I don't think Pat has purchased another highend brand in years to go through the build and spend some time flying it like his WHs. " First, I bought a Dawghouse Yak at Toledo while I was there with Tom. Before that I bought a 33% World Models Cub. Since then I've acquired an H-9 46% Ultimate. I bought a Comp Arf 2.6m Yak 55sp in there somewhere as well. Matter of fact, you can see that Yak beside my new W/H Edge if you wanted to visit the W/H site. That should take care of the not buying anything statement.

with Tom is the funny part of that.. you work his booths from time to time correct?

	Quote: Originally Posted by Tired Old Man
	Unlike you, I buy my stuff from Wild Hare. I don't get free planes from people like Extreme Flight. Probably becasue I'm not a moderator on RCU and can't lend the implied support of an R/C blog site by having that title in my avitar. Seems like the open G.S. forum over there is now pretty much dedicated to promoting EF, PAU, and OMP. The number of shills posting and supporting each make of product is quite obvious. You can tell by how frequently they bump the threads back up to the top. Always the same people from the same geographical area.

Speaking of getting your facts straight.. take a look at my reviews.. they go back to July of 07.

I have been a mod for less than a year.. and in both cases I went after the option and it most definately was not just handed over. You have no clue how it works.

They have absolutely nothing to do with eachother. You really don't have a clue in this area my friend.

	Quote: Originally Posted by Tired Old Man
	As to cost differential. Should you elect to buy the stuff ground up from W/H, using a 35% plane for an example, you can obtain the kit, the engine, the hardware, the servos, the batteries, switches, have carbon wing tubes as part of the standard package, only have to hinge 1/2 the rudder, have a completed canopy and hatch out of the box, and do all that for less than $2,100.00. The 28% planes for less than that by a bunch. As for buying an EF plane, which you promote since you get them for free (you told me so, remember), I can, and have, worked with and flown EF planes owned by others. As often as I want to. I was again out with two people that own 88" EF Yaks last weekend. I have flown both their planes, and flown them hard. Why buy one when you can fly someone elses for free? Perhaps you don't feel I can see well enough to determine levels of quality? With one the only thing it did better than my 28% v2 Edge was slow flight. Even the owner of the Yak said my Edge out turned and out tumbled his Yak on previous days out. The other EF Yak owner would like to buy my Edge from me. I think that says a lot, don't you? The 88" EF Yak is a good flying plane, don't get me wrong. I even enjoy flying it. But I like the way the 84" Edge flys better.

Sorry Pat, I fly both IMAC and 3D.. The EF excels in more ways then you believe.. you forget I had an 84" Edge with a Taurus 52 that was completely lightened and weighed 16.5 pounds (was V1)

I told you I got the plane for the review for free... and Chris helped me out when it went in. I didn't get a 2nd one for free. It works like many other reviews really. You have to buy everything else.

Of course the Edge is going to tumble better... it's WAY smaller and it's an Edge. Apples to Oranges anyone?

	Quote: Originally Posted by Tired Old Man
	Now if you would like to talk to people like Taurus, BME, and RCGF you would find out I also pay for the engines I have. I pay the same as most everyone else for radio equipment too. I have DA and 3W as well but I obtained them 2nd hand. My Brisons I bought new and at retail. So if there's any favoritism being provided, I have a feeling that would be coming from those getting free product (like you) or those paid to promote a product like the dealers and sponsored fliers in some other RCU Giant Scale threads. Now there was a new OMP thread started over there the other day that was originally posted by a another moderator, but shortly thereafter the moderator pulled his name off of the thread and someone else took over as the thread starter.

	Quote: Originally Posted by Tired Old Man
	You are so full of it - it makes me sick. You need help seriously.. you are making stuff up here about the OMP thread. I haven't even heard of a review available yet and that is one thing I would hear about. So stop making stuff up. As for kit costs, there is very little difference in wholesale costs between one 28 to 30% kit and another. How do I know? I almost bought a major kit distributor not long ago and I know what the costs are. Hardware can add a couple of dollars but at Chinese pricing that difference is not $100.00 or more. I know what that stuff costs as well. Any idiot can figure out that someone that does not have a dealer network can sell for less. The distributor with a dealer network has to make his profit. So either he sells the product for less to the dealer so the dealer can mark up for more profit, or he sells for the same and lets the dealer add on to his cost plus base profit price. Now if that distributor elected not to undersell his dealers his profit would be even higher on product that was bought from him direct. Middle men add to the cost structure of a product, period.

Again Pat, your knowledge is limited here again. The whole dealer network thing out to lunch.. you tried to hammer at this over multiple emails and you think you know everything but you are not correct here.

	Quote: Originally Posted by Tired Old Man
	We can take this a lot father but other have noticed your aggressive attitude and have been sending me PM's at RCU because they wanted to find out what the problem was. Like I told them, you're upset because I made a statement alluding that you were an EF shill. You have done little to debase that allusion in this thread. So let's get this straight, you get free stuff. I don't. You and Chris are good friends according to one of your statements. You have flown together according to another statement. You're an RCU moderator that's been doing manufacturer promotions and build threads. I'm not. I'm just a guy that works for a living and trys to have fun on his own dime. I'll always buy and fly that which I believe to be the best performing, or if the performance is close, the best for the money spent. As noted, I don't always buy and fly W/H, however, the only one I've seen to date that did not perform well was the Cap that was discontinued.

Way to go Pat, you are clearly in the wrong industry, maybe you should get into media because you have clearly mastered the art of flipping peoples words.

I met Chris one weekend at Huckfest, I think he is an outstanding guy who really cares about the hobby. Melissa and him are a complete blast to hang out with. I spent ONE weekend there at Huckfest and we hit it off. Much like anyone who goes and hangs out with him would do.

I have not been there since and maybe talked to him 10 times in the last 1.5 years. You got me.


As far as WH.. I am not hear to knock them. I have owned what I have owned and seen what I have seen.. I am well aware of the quality and what has worked and what hasn't.

	Quote: Originally Posted by Tired Old Man
	I do believe that moderators in any RC forum should not be able to actively promote products. That lends quite a bit of free and unfair advertising advantage to the importer receiving the service.

I did a review on the AW 260 as well.. but it's the EF 300 I am all about. Sorry I believe it to be the best 50cc currently on the market. That is my own personal feeling plain and simple.


If I was a team pilot or whatever, sorry but I would be proudly displaying that in my sig.



On a side note, I would love to see a video of you flying. I mean I have seen it asked before and you always say you don't have a camera. But it would be nice to see.

I spoke out against you because I got tired of you slamming WH into everyone's face. Lets remember WH wasn't even part of the thread and you were on the first page and the 3rd twice giving updates.

[Tired Old Man]

That works for me too.

So we both support the maunfactures that we feel provides the best products. We have our differences on what constitues reasons for better or lessorproducts. No big deals or problems there, correct?

As a moderator at a different forum, I would expect that you have opportunities to review various products. That not a bad thing, especially if you have writing ability. You do, and that too is a good thing.

Where I have a problem, and not specifically with you, is when the tag "moderator" is attached to an avitar associated with a review. That provides subtle support of the site that is carrying the review. Without the "moderator" tag would be fine, but with it implies what I consider an unfair advertising advantage, especially if a review was performed on a product provided by the site. We both know that is done with some people.

There was an implication that I was a liar, which I resented very much. It was only fair that I returned the favor. Tit for tat so to speak. Now are we done with that or should it continue?

Regarding reviews, if you recall I offered to do a side by side review of two different large Edges. One 35% and the other 36%. The only condition was that the 36% manufacturer provide the kit at the same price the 35% sells for. They never responded to that challenge so it was never done. Yes, I could and would very easily do a fair comparison, including accurate cost break downs. Cost breakdowns because I track almost every penny spent on completing a model.

I don't care who makes what, if it flies right and is in line cost wise it gets the favorable nod.

[sinergy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Tired Old Man
	Jake, It was a little over a year ago that you managaed to chase Ralph Cunningham (RC Ignition) off of RCU. Am I to suppose I'm the next target on your hit list? Pat

He got "chased" because someone got tired of his poor attitude and continually slamming anyone who didn't agree with how great he was or how Zenoah was the best.

The man has knowledge, but is more of a child then you and I put together. Sometimes the truth hurts, but I for one speak my mind and call it like I see it.

If you want to call it chasing because I didn't bow down to him then so be it.

However I just gave someone his contact info off of his site 2 weeks ago. He has LOTS of knowledge but the way he uses it and acts is not something I agree with.


As far as you being the next "Target", I don't have a list. However you make some pretty amazing claims about how everything works and a lot of it is wrong and I am not going to just close an eye to it.

[sinergy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Tired Old Man
	That works for me too. So we both support the maunfactures that we feel provides the best products. We have our differences on what constitues reasons for better or lessorproducts. No big deals or problems there, correct? As a moderator at a different forum, I would expect that you have opportunities to review various products. That not a bad thing, especially if you haqve writing ability. You do, and that too is a good thing. Where I have a problem, and not specifically with you, is when the tag "moderator" is attached to an avitar associated with a review. That provides subtle support of the site that is carrying the review. Without the "moderator" tag would be fine, but with it implies what I consider an unfair advertising advantage, especially if a review was performed on a product provided by the site. We both know that is done with some people. There was an implication that I was a liar, which I resented very much. It was only fair that I returned the favor. Tit for tat so to speak. Now are we done with that or should it continue? Regarding reviews, if you recall I offered to do a side by side review of two different large Edges. One 35% and the other 36%. The only condition was that the 36% manufacturer provide the kit at the same price the 35% sells for. They never responded to that challenge so it was never done. Yes, I could and would very easily do a fair comparison, including accurate cost break downs. Cost breakdowns because I track almost every penny spent on completing a model. I don't care who makes what, if it flies right and is in line cost wise it gets the favorable nod.

Here is the problem Pat.



Anyone can become a reviewer for said site. They even make a post in the forums when positions open.

I contacted a reviewer to find out what was involved, what I needed to do, and how much work was involved. I did a sample review on something I was already doing a build thread on anyhow. I just added video and then had to make the webpage.

Reviewers and Mods have absolutely nothing to do with eachother.

I asked about being a mod later myself down the road. It wasn't just given to me either.. it took like 3 or 4 months to get ok'd.


It takes upwards of 100 hours to a review ( I didnt believe it that high until I started doing it) so yes you get some free product (whatever you are reviewing). However you need to buy everything else that you need for majority of reviews.


As for the Edge review.. I dont really know much about that. However since you are so WH in the eyes of many posters I can imagine that they may feel it might not be a fair review? I dont know I dont recall seeing talk about that.