12fg dual rate question?

[buildflycrash]

Am I stupid or is the 12fg way harder to program than my 9C.

I want to setup triple rates and Expo om one switch.

I'm compelely lost.

I could set up a whole plane in 10 minutes on my 9c.

Help!

[khan]

Been there myself. Sorry I do not have my 12z in front of me to help with the details but I think you have to go to the AFR menu for the fligth condition you are in. If you have not set any conditions yet then that will be set in the default (normal) condition. The way I finally set up triple rates is by defining three fligth conditions assigned to be active via a three position switch. Within each condition i then program all expos atvs etc . Much more flexible and powerfull. Hope it helps you.

[NormS]

I used to have a 9CA Super, so I know what you mean about how easy it was to set up. It’s a bit more work to do it on the 12 and 14 channel radios but its not hard. I set some of my planes up with triple rates and use one switch for all three controls. Here’s how you do it, step by step:

1 Decide what switch you want to use. For this example I’m going to use SD.

2 Go to the End Point function in the Linkage menu and set up your travel and limit for each control. For this example I’m just going to leave it at the defaults of 100% travel and 135% limit.

3 Go to the Dual Rate function in the Model menu. There are 6 rates listed on the two screens in the function, called D/R 1, D/R 2, etc. For each one there’s a status entry that will say INH, a control function (aileron, elevator, etc) and a switch selection.

A Scroll to the D/R 1 status entry, click on INH, select ACT and click again. When you’ve done this the status will say either ON of OFF; don’t worry about it yet.

B Leave the D/R 1 control set to Aileron.

C Scroll to the switch selection and click on it, which sends you to the switch selection screen. Select SD (from step 1) and set the switch settings to top = off, middle = on, bottom = off.

D Repeat steps A – C for D/R 2 (elevator) and D/R 3 (rudder). Each time, select switch SD and set it to off, on, off.

E Flip switch D up and down and watch the status. It should say OFF, ON, Off as you work the switch for D/R 1 – 3.

F Go to D/R 4 and activate it. Leave it set to aileron and scroll over to the switch setting and select SD. This time, however, set SD as follows: top = off, middle = off, bottom = on.

G Go to D/R 5, activate it, select Elevator and set the switch to SD. Set it to off, off, on as in step F.

H Go to D/R 6, activate it, select rudder and SD and set it to off, off, on..

I OK, you’ve done the hard part. Watch the screen as you work switch D and you should see all six D/R’s off with the switch up, D/R 1 -3 ON and D/R 4 – 6 OFF with the switch in the middle, and D/R 1- 3 OFF and D/R 4-6 ON with the switch down.

4 Go to the AFR function in the Model menu.

5 Button to screen 2. The function should be ELE. On the right side at the bottom is should say D/R No. 2 5. Work switch D and watch what happens.

6 Go back to screen one. Make sure SD is up (top). Leave RATE A and RATE B at +100, but set EXP A and EXP B to -70. Make sure its -70, not +70. You should see a pretty curve with a lot of expo on the graph.

7 Set switch D to the middle position. Note that the curve changes to a straight line.

8 Set RATE A and RATE B to +80 and set EXP A and EXP B to -50.

9 Set switch D to the bottom position and set RATE A and RATE B to +60 and EXP A and EXP B to -30.

10 Congratulation, you’ve just set triple rates and triple expo for the elevator to switch D. Repeat steps 6 - 9 for the Aileron and Rudder controls, which you select on screen 2 of the AFR function.

For this example I programmed symmetrical and arbitrary rates and expos and set all three controls to the same values. For your plane you may want to set them up to all have different rates and curves, but that’s real easy to do in the AFR function. Just remember to set the switch you’ve chosen to the rate position you want to adjust. Also, note that you can set the controls up to different switches if you want, or set the rate/expo to be activated by the throttle.

You can also do triple rates with flight conditions, but I think its easier to do it this way..

NormS

[Tin man]

I agree that it's easier to use rates rather than conditions for dual/triple rates. No need to.

The 9c might have been easier, but that's mostly because it's so limited compared to the 12FG/12Z/14MZ. You get triple rates based on which switch you choose. Want triple rates on three different switches? Sorry, no can do.

The higher end radios take a much different approach. Rates are first chosen by end point/AFR. That is your base, or high, rate. From there you can add additional rates first by assigning the switch in the d/r menu and then dialed in via AFR. You can have up to six additional rates per flight condition. These plus the base rates give a total of nine per condition. The extra rates can be used however you like. As Norm's post above shows, you can use two rates per control to get triple rates on a/e/r. Or you could instead have six additional rates for just ailerons, if you so desired (never know).

It's actually much more powerful than the 9c. And once you understand the different logic you will prolly find the 12FG easier, and certainly more flexable.


--
Mike

Tv

[buildflycrash]

Getting my head wrapped around the concept of the programing is obvously the problem. What TinMan is saying is starting to make sense. Just so many more steps to do what I want for any plane.

The first concept of "Conditions" I still don't understand????
Please explane.

[wildhare]

	Quote: Originally Posted by buildflycrash
	Getting my head wrapped around the concept of the programing is obvously the problem. What TinMan is saying is starting to make sense. Just so many more steps to do what I want for any plane. The first concept of "Conditions" I still don't understand???? Please explane.

You don't need conditions at all, just set that aside for the moment.

Full rates occur when nothing else is happening, that is the default and is set with end point adjust. Get that the way you want it first.

Then you can select any of the Dual rate entries to get a lower rate. The term "dual rate" is a poor description, it should more accurately be named "rate reduction".

You can select up to 6 rate reductions. Normally one might do 2 of them for each control. So lets just say that we are doing 2 rate reductions for elevators, low rates and medium rates. Remember that high rates are when both of the rate-reduction entries are off. You'll need to select the switch settings for each rate reduction in the dual rates section. Just remeber that ON means the rate reduction is in effect. So on a 3 position switch, if you want low rates in the down position it would read

OFF
OFF
ON

To use the center position (such as in medium rates) it would be set up as

OFF
ON
OFF

And then since there is no rate reduction set for

ON
OFF
OFF

the top switch setting would give you full rates.

You set what happens on a given switch setting in the AFR section.

Play with it and try to forget how the 9C worked, that's what is confusing you. Once you understand the concept you will see the elegance of the design.

TF

[Flyfalcons]

The 9C was definitely quicker to set up an airplane with, but the programming flexibility on the 12FG-14MZ make the extra time needed worth it. Personally I use conditions to add dual or triple rates, but it's just how I like to do it. I'm still learning all the ins and outs of my 14 but have found there are often several ways to accomplish the same task. I played with a friend's 12FG briefly a couple days ago and was very impressed with it - programming menus are laid out differently but the programming itself is the same.

Edit - it is also not necessary to have your high rates as "standard" either. I set my low rate condition to be primary. That way the radio will warn me if I try to turn it on with 3D rates selected. Not that I wouldn't notice on taxi-out and control check, but it's a nice backup.

[wildhare]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Flyfalcons
	Edit - it is also not necessary to have your high rates as "standard" either. I set my low rate condition to be primary. That way the radio will warn me if I try to turn it on with 3D rates selected. Not that I wouldn't notice on taxi-out and control check, but it's a nice backup.

True, each of the dual rate settings selects a percentage of full throw, so you could set one up at 100%, however that wastes a rate setting entry as there are only 6 of them. That's why I let the full rate be the default, but you are right, you don't have to do it that way.

Just FYI, before I got the 12FG I had a JR 12x. The level of flexibility of the 12FG cannot be compared to the 12x. The 12x is "stone knives and bearskins" (quoting Mr. Spock) by comparison.

My compliments to Futaba on that.

TF

[buildflycrash]

I do need to forget that 9c , Its dragin' me down.

Thanks a lot guys, I'll try this all when I get home tonight.

Here's another - Probably easier- Rudder aileron mix. On my IMAC plane when I'm doing bigger rudder corrections while flying with speed I get quite a bit of opposite roll. so I want the mix to only work at say 1/3 throttle and above. I don't notice the adverse roll doing hammers or down lines near as much as when I'm just flying across the field.

Any flying or progrming input might help me here.

[bax]

When you set up a mixer, you select the switch you want to use. If you want the throttle to determine the mix, then you select throttle as the switch. Then you go into the "on/off" section and select the position. Check to see where the white/black indicator is and select "Reverse", if needed. The go to the "Set" section, move the throttle stick to the position you want and press the dial. Bingo! You've just now selected the throttle stick to turn the mixer on and off.

[wildhare]

	Quote: Originally Posted by buildflycrash
	I do need to forget that 9c , Its dragin' me down. Thanks a lot guys, I'll try this all when I get home tonight. Here's another - Probably easier- Rudder aileron mix. On my IMAC plane when I'm doing bigger rudder corrections while flying with speed I get quite a bit of opposite roll. so I want the mix to only work at say 1/3 throttle and above. I don't notice the adverse roll doing hammers or down lines near as much as when I'm just flying across the field. Any flying or progrming input might help me here.

There are a couple ways to do this. Your mix has two numbers, one for the lower half and one for the upper half. You can set just the upper half (watch the little graph on the left) so nothing will happen under 50% of travel.

The other way is to use the throttle stick to turn the mix on and off. There 's a little bar graph on the left, you use the SET function to set the point where the mix is turned on and off.

I don't have it memorized but I've done it several times so I know it works.

TF

[bax]

	Quote: Originally Posted by buildflycrash
	Getting my head wrapped around the concept of the programing is obvously the problem. What TinMan is saying is starting to make sense. Just so many more steps to do what I want for any plane. The first concept of "Conditions" I still don't understand???? Please explane.

A "Condition" in the 12FG, 12Z, or 14 MZ, is basically an entire airplane setup. You can have different throws, different mixes, different rates, different expos, and so forth, all available at the flick of a switch.

If you have a mix that you want to be active in only one condition, you flip a switch to activate the condition, go into the mixer, set it to "Single", and then set up the mix. When a mix, rate, expo, or function are set to "Single", then that mix, rate, expo, or function will only be active in that particular condition. If anything is set to "Group", then that setting is global to all conditions that have it set to "Group".

The advantage of setting up conditions is that you can have the exact airpane setup for a particular flight regime.

If you fly active 3-D, then a condition for "T/O & L" would have all of the rates and mixes set up so that you have the airplane perfectly set up for takeoffs and landings, with the throttle able to go down low enough for taxiing and landing.

A second condition would be for rolling circles. That takes a certain amount of rudder, aileron, and elevator throws, and possibly certain mixes.

A third condition for snaps would enable the perfect control rates and even activate snap button presets.

Finally, a fourth condition for 3-D flying would have the full throws you need to do those maneuvers, including a mix that would reflex the ailerons for Harriers and such.

In all conditions except the "T/O & L" condition, you could limit the lower-end of the throttle channel so that your engine keeps its RPM above a certain level. Just set the throttle AFR to "Single" in the
takeoff/land condition, and then set the bottom of the throttle curve in any of the other conditions to the level desired.

Conditions can be very advantageous, especially because you can name them and the currently-selected condition appears on the front of the transmitter. Also, if you have Condition #1 set to your basic flight default, then the transmitter will warn you if a different condition is selected upon turn-on of the transmitter.

[buildflycrash]

Thanks Bax,
That helps. For now I'm just setting up my 50cc Yak for 3D conditions. (The IMAC Extra is next). Is there any danger that I might have a switch in the wrong position and turn off all my rates, expos & Mixxes ??? Your gonna say "no" but it kind of seems like that could happen???

[buildflycrash]

While we're at it....My throttle cut is moving the wrong way. The throttle moves correct but when I hit the switch it gives me MORE throttle. I messed with this for 20 minutes the other day before I gave up.

[bax]

Look into the Throttle Cut function inside the Linkage Menu. Where is the Cut % set to? The default is 17%, and is basically the same place as low throttle with zero trim. Nothing happens when I flip the switch. Go into the "Cut Position" portion and dial it down to a lower %. Now it should move down. Above the first tick-mark on the little bar graph (at about 1/4 throttle), the Throttle Cut function won't work.