42% Dalton 300 or 35% Dalton 260?

[khedge]

	Quote: Originally Posted by ben_beyer
	I talked to one of the guys I flew with in CO once and just lays the CF tow down and then glues it in when he glues on the skins. He put the glue on the skins though. I'm sure it works both ways though.

Yea it does, that carbon tow really stiffens up the stabs.

[ben_beyer]

So, do you just add the tow to the top or to both top and bottom?

Also, go the length of the spar and how much of the ailerons do you add it to?

[sukhoi26]

If your not coring the wings, all you need to do is the ailerons. Both sides, LE, TE, of the aileron. You'll be fine with that. Rob

[WOODisGOOD]

Buy both!!!

[ben_beyer]

	Quote: Originally Posted by sukhoi26
	If your not coring the wings, all you need to do is the ailerons. Both sides, LE, TE, of the aileron. You'll be fine with that. Rob

Chances are I'll be coring my wings. Got any instructions for doing the ailerons?

The top and bottom should be pretty easy, cut pieces to fit (I'm assuming), tacking them in place somehow (assuming again), and the sheet the wings. What's the best way for the LE and TE though?

[ben_beyer]

	Quote: Originally Posted by WOODisGOOD
	Buy both!!!

Sorry, can only do one. Unless something major happens, I'll be calling you in a week or two

[ben_beyer]

Ok, here's a thought that popped into my head today and it's just a thought.

People have mentioned that there are a bunch of good used DA 150's on the market now that the 170 is out. As stated before, I was planning on doing a DA 170 on MTW cans, BUT do you think I would disappointed in a DA 150 on the MTW RE3 pipes?

I could save a little bit, but like I said, the cost isn't really a factor in any of this build.

Thoughts?

[ben_beyer]

Ok, here's a thought that popped into my head today and it's just a thought.

People have mentioned that there are a bunch of good used DA 150's on the market now that the 170 is out. As stated before, I was planning on doing a DA 170 on MTW cans, BUT do you think I would disappointed in a DA 150 on the MTW RE3 pipes?

I could save a little bit, but like I said, the cost isn't really a factor in any of this build.

Thoughts?

[sukhoi26]

Coring wings. Something I know alot about.

[BOSSIER_ROB]

	Quote: Originally Posted by ben_beyer
	Ok, here's a thought that popped into my head today and it's just a thought. People have mentioned that there are a bunch of good used DA 150's on the market now that the 170 is out. As stated before, I was planning on doing a DA 170 on MTW cans, BUT do you think I would disappointed in a DA 150 on the MTW RE3 pipes? I could save a little bit, but like I said, the cost isn't really a factor in any of this build. Thoughts?

The stock built kits have been flying on 150s with stock mufflers for years. Guys have flown 45lb aircraft on these.If you build it as a stock kit with a 150, you'll have a great flying 3D and IMAC plane with plenty of power. If you lighten it, it'll have great vertical on a 150. If you add pipes, you have a hot rod. If money isn't a factor, lighten it and slap a 170 on it.

[smokin]

the 150 is what these planes were designed around! that 150 on pipes is tremendous and if it is money you desire to save, especially since the 42% is more money than the 35%, i would go with a 150 on pipes! you'll love it!

[ben_beyer]

Well, like I said, it's not necessarily about money, but it's something that came to mind and I would think the performance would be good and I might save a little in the process. Just something to think about...

Another thing, the 170 is a drop-in replacement for the 150. SO, if I decided I really needed the extra power of the 170, it would be a matter of turning 4 bolts. Might not be a bad idea, but I'm still going to let it sit on the brain before I decide for sure.

[MattyMatt]

Hey Ben,

If getting the plane isn't an issue then go with the 42% 300. It will present better than a 35% and do 3D better than 99.9% of people can fly. There are only two reasons I know of why a trend to go to 35% airplanes for 3D over the 42%... 1. Cheaper and many more good ARF's on the market in this size, so when it hits the ground you can replace it easier, 2. The 35% tend to do things faster or at least appear faster, so it looks like a larger speed envelope. (good for 3D, not good for IMAC)

I personally sold a DA150 in June last year and was going to buy a new 170... two friends were selling really good DA150's two months ago, so I bought one. I had no issue with power on my first 260 with a 150 and cans, and the pipes are just plain sick. So, if you want to keep cost down, you can easily get a nice DA150 used for $1000 or less (I paid $900), and go with Greve or RE3's, headers, prop and spinner for what you would pay just for a new DA170. Simple cost benefit analysis for me proved to stay with the 150.

The 300's or 260's bone stock come in at 37-38 lbs. This is the ideal weight for these planes. I run carbon tow on the trailing edges of all the surfaces and over the top of the wing and stab tubes (root to tip), for uncored wings. This is just to stiffen things up under a load. As Rob said, Tony builds these planes 100% stock for Mark and yes Mark could fly a 2X4 and make it look good... but he wouldn't have consistently won with an airplane that had some large flaw. So, the benefits for any mods are very small... more like tweaking. I really like to work with my customers to see how they want to the plane to feel and go from there. There isn't a single canned answer for everyone. I can tell you though... I don't know anyone that has flown one of my personal planes that didn't feel instantly connected to the plane. That tells me that the plane is very close to where it should be for everyone.

Regarding the "mods" that Rob and I have posted over the last few years in our build threads... I like to build and so does Rob. (we're pretty good friends and talk often) The mods are not required for the planes to fly very well. As long as the plane is built straight and you know how to trim it... you will be extremely happy with the Dalton planes. I grew up building competition pattern planes. That is a whole different world than IMAC. I have simply brought some of the techniques that I grew up doing on pattern planes to my Daltons. Building is unfortunately becoming a thing of the past... so Rob and I show some of these techniques that aren't in a manual or build instructions to show people what can be done, for those that are looking for that extra edge. I take a lot of pride in my work and enjoy sharing what I have learned from some very talented people over the years. Reality is that most people do not know how, or don't take the time to properly set up and trim the planes to get everything they can out of them... so, why am I telling you this? Because unless you are spending the time to get the most out of the planes... then the mods really are a waste of time. You'll get more from burning gas, working with someone to trim the planes and having fun at an IMAC contest.

Now, don't get me wrong... if you are interested in making some changes to see how it flies and like to change the way the plane acts in different attitudes... then I'm all for making something better. On the ML300 that I'm flying right now... it is pretty much stock. Wings are not cored. Why did I do this? Because of time and because many of the contests we fly at the planes are in a constant cross wind and I noticed that the wings really bounced in the wind, but I did like the way the plane snapped better with the light wings. So, now there is a balance to find.

Ben, I think it is great that you are going to back into another build. Don't feel that you have to have a DA170 or have to make all these changes to the Dalton airframes to be competitive though. There is one major draw back with owning a Dalton... you will be disappointed with most airframes after.

I've been really tied up with work the last few months and will be finishing up Dave Fox's ML300 in the next few weeks. I'll post some more pics, but am hesitant to show all what has been done. (He flies at 5000 ft, so the plane needs to be light for it to fly well.) My time has been really limited, so I haven't been on FG too much, but if you have any questions please don't hesitate to PM or email me.

matt

[ben_beyer]

Matt!

I agree 100% with all the you said and I think the only real modification I'm going to make is to core the wings. I might carve out part of the tail as in the picture I posted, but that's relatively easy to do and wouldn't take too much time. I like to build and time is at a premium for me to, but this is something that I want to do and I'd love to be a kit builder on a small scale for people in the future. My dad at one point in his life was a cabinet maker and so I've grown up seeing what excellent wood work can create. I enjoy that and now I can combine it with my hobby.

[Andrew Bird]

	Quote: Originally Posted by sukhoi26
	Coring wings. Something I know alot about.

Wow - awesome job. What's the best technique to do this?