Is the cost for GOOD synthetic worth it?

[pipercub123]

I have some free time and with all the oil arguments, I want to just see what will keep money in my pocket while running a 50cc. I'm a young buck on a budget so money is important and willing to try either syn or mineral with no "it's always been mineral oil" kind of motto to make this discussion biased. Isn't that why we try to find the best oil? Yes it may be because of performance, but for me I really can't tell if my engine puts out 8 oz more thrust with synthetic over mineral. The reason is for a long engine life. I find this to be interesting research! So, not a total waste of time! Let's assume that during the engine lifespan, the market prices of engine and oils will climb at the same rate. Taxes and shipping will stay the same. Of course if mineral oil price peaks or synthetic drops than your better choice will be synthetic.

I'm not paying $11 for a small bottle at a bike shop, so I found some at eastrc.org for 19.69 a qrt. Man that's a lot more than cheap penz. If my 50cc engine lasts for 400 hrs or 200 gal, I'd go through 16 qrts @ 50:1 and at the current price it turns out to be $315. Shipping will be free as I'd order props and 2 qrts at a time to meet shipping quota and that'll last me for more than a year. About $4 a qrt for good mineral oil and @ 32:1 for 200 gal that's $108 with tax. Heck, I could probably find valvoline or use supertech and still get 400 hrs @ 32:1, but the savings wouldn't be much over Penz. So with the Penz I'm saving $207. If using a cheap DL, I wouldn't even spend the extra on Belray or anything much over $4 a qrt! $390 for new DL55 and $207 in oil savings. You can rebuild it yourself for what $100 for typical rebuild? Repeat this process as long as you can and you'll still be saving money even with several rebuilds.

"A":

Let's assume that with the DL55, synthetic will make the engine last to 800 hrs. So that's one engine and 32 qrts of H1R and turns out to be $1,020. Hopefully the ignition doesn't fry within the 800hrs. You also can't replace any parts on the engine either and I'll explain further on my reasoning.

"B":

Now let's say we go through two DL55s as a result of burning mineral oil. We have 2 engines and $216 worth of mineral oil. The grand total is $996.

In conclusion, I believe it depends on the price of your engine and the price of a rebuild. I used the price of a new engine and I know a rebuild is most often less especially if you do it yourself and do it right. So here's an even bigger savings! More expensive engines may outweigh the price of synthetics. I or somebody elsewill have to do an update on a DA 100 if anyone is interested.
Let's also hope that in"A", we don't replace any parts. Assuming that with both engines only general maintenance items will be replaced upto the 400 hrs. threshold. Anything past that a part will make the costs of running synthetic higher as by running minerals we have enough money to buy a new engine! New engines come with new ignitions and new carbs and these items just might need some attention in "A" when getting up in hrs. Also by staying with a new engine in "B", we can have a better chance of staying within a warranty. That's a money saver for the unforseen problems. Also by buying new we have a better chance to get any updates without shelling out more money. One drawback if you're a tree hugger, is that you'll have to recycle youre engine so we're not wasting metals. Also using mineral oils(perhaps, mineral oil use has less impact on environment when looking at manufacturing means and pollution, who really cares though in this application).

My DA with mineral for 800 hrs.,

(2)$595 engine+$216 mineral oil= $1,406 We're behind $181 here!

Let's say we rebuild ourselves. Hmm, how much does this cost on a DA? $80 bearings, $80 piston, $50 rod, $30 for wrist pin and carb parts. I have no idea and this is a total guess. Can anyone elaborate on this?? In this case it'll cost us $1,051. Depending on actual rebuild costs and if we have the know how to do it, we're better off doing it ourselves with more expensive engines. It's cheaper and we can rebuild the carb that we may need to anyways while running syn. We even have money left for a new ignition and we're still saving money.

With syn for 800 hrs:
$595 engine+$630 syn oil= $1,225

Let's say a new ignition is $100. I have no idea how much the DA igns are or even if I'll need to replace an ign. while getting upto 800 hrs. If we do than we're at $1325. Still saving money over minerals here though. Now there's the bearings. Are these going to last upto 800 hrs? Will syn oils really extend their life? We may be able to replace some bearings by ourselves and break even or just over.

So, what do you think? If we don't fry our engine from misuse of syns and bad tuning and the ign lasts, we could save or just end up spending more money with synthetic. Those who will save are those who'd have to pay to have an engine torn down. Those people with less engine knowlege may even be the ones who run too lean and fry their engines.

Than take me, the novice gasser guy. I use 32:1 and my carb is a lot easier to adjust so less frustration. I also have some insurance by having extra oil incase of a hot run do to tuning or bad cooling. In the case of synthetics, an overheat could mean rebuild. Your hopes of long engine life is wasted and here you could have saved on oil and perhaps prevented damage with mineral.

Let's say you crash or have an equipment failure. Your syn ran engine with 400 hrs gets a bent crank and it could've damaged a bearing. There's new bearings and a crank. It's already opened up and with the $207 you could have saved, it would have paid for throwing in rings, piston, and etc. You would've already had the tear down planned with minerals and having extra money, no big deal.

Let's not even mention when your engine sucks in dirt. Oh no, that syn oil may be already pushing hard to lube a clean engine, let alone one with a particle in it.

Availability comes to play and shipping costs. Good enough mineral oil can be found at the convenience store to get you by, perhaps they'll even have Pennz.

Also money coming in, you can spend it now or spend it later. Perhaps your mineral ran engine will last over 400 hrs. On the downside, maybe it'll only last 200hrs. I doubt the latter however. On a budget, I'd rather save my current money as I may get rid of the engine anyway in a year or so if a better engine comes out or I move to a bigger plane. Don't pour money into an engine to give it it's best treatment when it may wind up belonging to someone who'll end up frying it or using bad syn oil.

My mind is made up. I'm keeping my engine on Pennz or Stihl Ultra if that stuff is as cheap as pennz. There may be other oils to cut costs even more, however I don't recommend that. If doing so, use caution and watch engine closely.

I do plan on going towards a 100cc sometime in the future and I'll likely go for a DL111 or TMM 106. Cheap engines with a cheap rebuild so why waste money on syn with them?

For the performance guys, many claim more oil is better and the power is good at 32:1. Why spend your money on syn oil at 32:1? This is costing you even more dough! With a lot of oil at 32:1 you'd think minerals would lubricate almost as well as syn @ 32:1. I have no idea though.

So think it over and let me know what you think.

My bottom line is if you're new use mineral oil until you get the hang of things. If it works for you than don't switch for a while. If you can't rebuild an engine than learn how. I've stripped down and rebuilt a Lycoming 540 before and it was pretty easy. I tested the engine on a test stand and it ran great. Our case designs are similar and very easy to work on.

Syn oils may be good for a different use such as automotive where engines are generally more expensive, less maintenance intensive if general maintenance is done, and ign problems are generally cheap to fix for most or not even an issue. With auto engines, lifespan can double with syn and there's no worry of lean run from setting the carb wrong for most. In this area syn is still more expensive, but a lot cheaper than say H1R. For around $24, I can buy 5 qrts of Castrol syntec compared to H1R at almost that price! Stihl is cheaper so maybe that's a good choice for syn with planes if you stay away from a lean mix. In this comparison, I chose a popular syn and mineral choice.

So what's so special with these companies like Castrol or Mobil offering 4 cycle syn oil at a good price, but they can't make a 2 cycle oil cheap? Atleast I haven't found much for 2 cycle by the top companies.

Price set aside as that was the determining factor. Let's say we can get min or syn at the same price. Than I'd probably look for a syn that'll run at 50:1 like Stihl. I'm guessing that at 50:1, a slight lean run won't be sudden death. Why at 50:1 though? Are the lubrication properties equivalent to that of min at 32:1 we up to 50:1 for cleaner burning? Or are we exceeding the lubrication properties and reducing carbon at 50:1 than that of min 32:1? I'd really like to know as I'm curious and asking with no smart@ss intended. I tend to feel better with more oil and I'm not looking to reduce smoke or reduce cleaning, within reason however. So if syn at 32:1 provides less carbon and better lubrication, count me in. How about fouled plugs with syn at 32:1? I gues H1R shouldn't foul plugs at this ratio, but carbon?


Wow, oil is so confusing. I'm beginning to feel that there's always going to be some kind of gremlin that'll damage our engine no matter what we run. Makes sense than for me to use the best, but cheapest oil I can get and just have fun flying!

[pipercub123]

Check this out! This Stihl sounds good. Sure Amsoil has good advertising, but I think these guys really studied their stuff. I always hear syn can lubricate better, but I still wonder how much better it does at say 50:1. I guess when 40:1 is plenty than 50:1 syn would probably be better than 40:1 mineral.

http://www.stihl.com/isapi/default.a...ra/default.htm


Dang look how clean that piston looks after 500 hrs. Is that possible?

[krayzc]

for the RC needs Penz oil air cooled will be my ticket......

[BOSSIER_ROB]

I'll just throw it on the table for the info. I buy Bel Ray. The last order was 8 bottles of H1R and 7 bottles of MC1(for a friend) and the total cost was $104 and some change with free shipping. Both the MC1 and H1R were $6.99 for a 12.8oz bottle. One bottle makes 5 gallons. Someone posted me a link when I was shopping for the cheapest prices on Bel Ray. I'll post it for anyone who likes Bel Ray oils. I couldn't find it any cheaper, at the time, and it used to be a dollar cheaper, but still $6.99 a bottle with free shipping on orders over $99 aint bad.
http://www.rockymountainatv.com/type...97&webCatId=23

[3Dguy]

	Quote: Originally Posted by krayzc
	for the RC needs Penz oil air cooled will be my ticket......

Pennzoil FTW!!

[TKG]

The only thing wrong with this argument is that the engine will last 800 hr with a good dino oil.

[rede2fly]

[flying skunks]

YES

[zzw26n]

What about this stuff?

http://www.rockymountainatv.com/prod...dFamilyId=3360

[flying skunks]

	Quote: Originally Posted by zzw26n
	What about this stuff? http://www.rockymountainatv.com/prod...dFamilyId=3360

[RADRICH]

I'd lay odds that Stihl has been working with small high performance gas engines longer than any of our rc gas engine companies. I own a Stihl chainsaw and it runs great on the new HP Ultra. Use it every winter and haven't had a problem yet! That said tho...my chainsaw engine encased in the body of the saw gets a heck of alot hotter than or airplane engines. Don't know if that's good or bad.. Ya may need the higher temps for this stuff to work properly.

[topflight36]

Hi guys I use havoline TCW3 oil. I own a landscape company and we run that stuff through our equipment day in and day out at full throttle mostly. I find that it works just as well for me in my planes and I never have any problems out of it. Like Radrick said The engine on lawn equipment are incased and dont get much airflow. Like I said I have not seen any problems so far with running this oil in my planes. Just my 2cents.

[JoeAirPort]

Nope it's not worth it. Pennz air cooled is great and it's cheap.

[Flyer88]

I have to agree with TOPFLIGHT36: lawn equipment oil is just fine. I use the small bottles you can buy from Homedepot by Echo. It's synthetic, and one small bottle mixes perfectly in a gas can.

I don't know about you guys but I never ran-in any of my landscaping equipment and ran it 40:1 from the start. Never a problem. I think break-in is over rated.

Flyer88

[FENWAYFLYER]

Think with your dipstick Jimmy

YouTube - Castrol EDGE - Think With Your Dipstick

&feature=related

YouTube - Think With Your Dipstick Jimmy!

&feature=related