Is it the airplane or me?

[Les44]

I'm flying the discontinued Lanier 94" Edge 540 with JR8711 all the way around except for two HS5985 on the elvators. I'm powered up with the DA-85. I feel that I'm a decent pilot but I can't do any better than bottom of the pack in Basic. The Edge has huge control surfaces and a ridiculously large rudder on it. I'm wondering if a new airframe would help me. I'm considering the Quique 101" Yak 54 for $650. Also, I'm going to have an Advanced level pilot fly my airplane and offer his honest opinion. I hope that the answer is that the problem is me since that is the cheaper solution. Any thoughts?

[smokin]

well, part of the issue is your set up i'm sure.. now i don't mean your equipement, but rather your balance, both fore/aft and lateral, your throws, your trimming, your mixing, your use of expo etc.... have that advanced level pilot give it a go with your plane and let him mix/trim/balance it for you his way and i bet you'll see a tremendous difference. there will almost always be a "better" airframe (grass greener on the other side) out there.... but you will find that yours is more capable than you think with the proper full setup!

you may also consider attending a couple of judging seminars to let you know exactly how they wish to see the entrance and exit of each manuver...

keep burnin' gas and seek as many "hands on" opinions as possible. there is always knowledge to be gathered! good luck and happy flying!

matt mikesh

[BOSSIER_ROB]

If the plane is properly balanced and set up for IMAC, it should easily fly the Basic sequence. You probably just need to work on getting it dialed in and an advanced pilot should be able to give you all the pointers and help you need to get the best out of that airframe. I found out last year that there is much more to it than to be able to loop, roll, and spin. Getting the CG in the sweet spot is a must, setting the engine thrust line so it track straight with no deviation left,right,up or down on all lines is very important, and setting the throws to a modest amount are all important. Since my first contest last year, I learned a ton about set up from other pilots and had lots of help on getting one set up correctly. You'll find yourself constantly trying to make it perform better. I am stepping up to Sportsman this year and feel that if I want to have a remote chance of finishing well, I have to stop goofing around with 3D all the time and spend more flights getting everything the way it needs to be to lessen the load on my thumbs. Having a plane that performs to it's best ability will allow you to concentrate on other things in the sequence instead of constantly fighting with the rudder to make it tack straight on an upline or porpoising on a downline fooling with the elevator. Balance it right, set the engine offset right, and use your mixing functions to ease your work load and you will start to enjoy it more and become more competative. Good Luck!

[IMACmike]

When properly trimmed, it should feel "dead" while flying, ie; no extra inputs to keep it flying wings level at its cruise power setting and control throws (for IMAC) should take a fair amount of input to acheive smooth manuevers. JMTCW

[flyboy1020]

The one key thing that I found when I set up my airplanes is to get the thrust angle so the airplane will go straight up with your hands off the sticks. If there is too much up thrust, when the airplane is true level going straight up, the airplane will drift or pull toward the canopy. If there is too much down thrust the airplane will push toward the landing gear on a straight upline. The same for too much right or left thrust. The airplane might drift right or left. To fix this you much tilt the motor by putting a very thin washer behind the motor mounts. I would only change about 1 degree of thrust angle at a time. Once you have the trust so the airplane will go straight up "hands off the sticks" at about full throtle your airplane will be flying way better. When I corrected the thrust in my airplanes I could fly more precise. It also takes the work load off when trying to fly a sequence. The thrust angle is my key to set up.

[Judge]

The first, most common and biggest mistake I see is WAAAAAAY too much control throw. Guys who are trying to fly precision with 3D throws are really killing themselves.

My philosophy is that you should have the absolute minimum amount of throw necessary to complete the desired maneuver. You will be surprised how little that actually is.

The first thing to do is tame your throws, I use as little as 10 degrees on elevator and my planes will snap and spin as required. Make sure to add some expo to smooth the center out a bit. Set up some dual rates with reduced rates. Keep cutting them down until the plane rolls way too slow to be controllable, or will not stall with full up elevator. Get used to flying like that, then set them as your regular rates once you convince yourself that you do not need 45 degrees of aileron throw.

Then get your balance correct. I like to test mine by rolling inverted and seeing how much down elevator I need. I want to feel just a bit of pressure, not really any more than that to maintain level inverted flight.

Then you can start tweaking thrust lines, etc.

But I will bet that if you reduce your throw and get your CG set you will find the plane will help you to fly and score better. Ignoring these two steps will just make the plane much harder to fly in precision aerobatics.

Then burn gas, practice with a spotter to tell you what looks wrong, burn gas, burn gas, burn gas, ..........

Also, talk to the judges to see what they are scoring low for you. A big problem is people never really learn the basics, like flying straight and level, flying vertical up and down lines, what the base geometry of a figure looks like and so on.

Here's a drill to try. Fly a straight and level line past yourself. At the end of the aerobatic area off to one side do a procedure turn, a 90 degree turn outbound, then a 270 degree turn in the opposite direction. Try to finish the turn on exactly the line you flew out. Then fly past yourself in the opposite direction and do another procedure turn on the other end.

The objective is to be able to do this until you are flying the same line each direction, at the same altitude, and exactly the same distance out from yourself. Start practicing on clam days, then when the wind blows to get a feel for wind direction.

Once you can do this so it looks like a single line from above (the plane is tracking exactly the same line in both directions at the same height and distance) then add a single roll when going downwind and a single loop when going upwind.

If you nail this simple (sounding) routine down you will be amazed at how much your other flying improves. Remember the goal in IMAC (or pattern) is to do EVERYTHING exactly parallel or at a 90 degree angle to the flight line. The single biggest flaw early on (and sadly many times longer than that) is failing to learn to fly straight and level and at the same altitude. Basically you have never really learned to fully control the plane. Until you do, everyting else is a waste of time.

[Dan767]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Judge
	The first, most common and biggest mistake I see is WAAAAAAY too much control throw. Guys who are trying to fly precision with 3D throws are really killing themselves. My philosophy is that you should have the absolute minimum amount of throw necessary to complete the desired maneuver. You will be surprised how little that actually is. The first thing to do is tame your throws, I use as little as 10 degrees on elevator and my planes will snap and spin as required. Make sure to add some expo to smooth the center out a bit. Set up some dual rates with reduced rates. Keep cutting them down until the plane rolls way too slow to be controllable, or will not stall with full up elevator. Get used to flying like that, then set them as your regular rates once you convince yourself that you do not need 45 degrees of aileron throw. Then get your balance correct. I like to test mine by rolling inverted and seeing how much down elevator I need. I want to feel just a bit of pressure, not really any more than that to maintain level inverted flight. Then you can start tweaking thrust lines, etc. But I will bet that if you reduce your throw and get your CG set you will find the plane will help you to fly and score better. Ignoring these two steps will just make the plane much harder to fly in precision aerobatics. Then burn gas, practice with a spotter to tell you what looks wrong, burn gas, burn gas, burn gas, .......... Also, talk to the judges to see what they are scoring low for you. A big problem is people never really learn the basics, like flying straight and level, flying vertical up and down lines, what the base geometry of a figure looks like and so on. Here's a drill to try. Fly a straight and level line past yourself. At the end of the aerobatic area off to one side do a procedure turn, a 90 degree turn outbound, then a 270 degree turn in the opposite direction. Try to finish the turn on exactly the line you flew out. Then fly past yourself in the opposite direction and do another procedure turn on the other end. The objective is to be able to do this until you are flying the same line each direction, at the same altitude, and exactly the same distance out from yourself. Start practicing on clam days, then when the wind blows to get a feel for wind direction. Once you can do this so it looks like a single line from above (the plane is tracking exactly the same line in both directions at the same height and distance) then add a single roll when going downwind and a single loop when going upwind. If you nail this simple (sounding) routine down you will be amazed at how much your other flying improves. Remember the goal in IMAC (or pattern) is to do EVERYTHING exactly parallel or at a 90 degree angle to the flight line. The single biggest flaw early on (and sadly many times longer than that) is failing to learn to fly straight and level and at the same altitude. Basically you have never really learned to fully control the plane. Until you do, everyting else is a waste of time.

This pretty much says it all....

[Les44]

Thanks for the responses. I've got my throws tamed down but maybe have too much aileron. I plan to fix that by installing longer bolts for the control horns as I'm already as close in on the servo horn as I can be. The bolts for my control horns are going to end up being 3.5 to 4 inches long. I've got about 10 deg. of elevator now but got to high rate elevator for the spin, about 25 deg. I've gone through the Peter Goldsmith tuning guide as well, over and over again. It's interesting that no one is saying that a different airframe would help me. I believe most of the IMAC guys at my club would say I need a different airplane, that an Edge isn't an IMAC airplane, especiallly the Lanier 33%. My CG is set as far forward as it can be and still get a break when she stalls. I noticed the guy who won Basic was flying a comp arf extra on cans. I think being quiet scores big points in the judge's subconcious mind. Another guy like me was loud and we were both towards the back of the pack. I know there are scores for noise but judges are human. If one can sound like the pros then one probably gets better scores all the way around for it....just a hypothesis.

[buildflycrash]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Les44
	Thanks for the responses. I've got my throws tamed down but maybe have too much aileron. I plan to fix that by installing longer bolts for the control horns as I'm already as close in on the servo horn as I can be. The bolts for my control horns are going to end up being 3.5 to 4 inches long. I've got about 10 deg. of elevator now but got to high rate elevator for the spin, about 25 deg. I've gone through the Peter Goldsmith tuning guide as well, over and over again. It's interesting that no one is saying that a different airframe would help me. I believe most of the IMAC guys at my club would say I need a different airplane, that an Edge isn't an IMAC airplane, especiallly the Lanier 33%. My CG is set as far forward as it can be and still get a break when she stalls. I noticed the guy who won Basic was flying a comp arf extra on cans. I think being quiet scores big points in the judge's subconcious mind. Another guy like me was loud and we were both towards the back of the pack. I know there are scores for noise but judges are human. If one can sound like the pros then one probably gets better scores all the way around for it....just a hypothesis.

You got some great advise above.
Your own coments make sense to me. Although Many do well, an Edge is not very popular in IMAC. If you have the time and $$$ a different plane may help.

[matus777]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Les44
	I'm flying the discontinued Lanier 94" Edge 540 with JR8711 all the way around except for two HS5985 on the elvators. I'm powered up with the DA-85. I feel that I'm a decent pilot but I can't do any better than bottom of the pack in Basic. The Edge has huge control surfaces and a ridiculously large rudder on it. I'm wondering if a new airframe would help me. I'm considering the Quique 101" Yak 54 for $650. Also, I'm going to have an Advanced level pilot fly my airplane and offer his honest opinion. I hope that the answer is that the problem is me since that is the cheaper solution. Any thoughts?

Less, based on the number of posts shown for you the solution is less time in front of the PC and more time flying ...sorry, could not resist!

[buildflycrash]

	Quote: Originally Posted by matus777
	Less, based on the number of posts shown for you the solution is less time in front of the PC and more time flying ...sorry, could not resist!

Wow! No kidding!

[jfstrama]

It's you!

(Just kidding)

I don't think there is ever a "perfect" plane. There are those that are better than others and that is an absolute fact. Having a plane that is set up as neutral as possible is important, and working on mixing to remove as many bad tendencies will reduce what you have to do with your thumbs to accomplish the manuevers.

That being said, from what I have seen the Edge fell out of favor in IMAC circles. Many people believe that the straight leading edge of the wings gives judges something to key on and more points are deducted for not having level wings in the manuevers than with double swept wings that present better even if your not perfect. I haven't been to a judging class, so I couldn't say whether that is true or not.

I think it's important to train with higher level pilots (both at your side spotting and on the sticks of your plane to assist in setup and trimming) they know what wins and what doesn't. When the other pilot is flying your plane, or his, WATCH HIS HANDS NOT THE PLANE! See what he is doing, have him call out a cadence of manuevers so you can watch the sticks. It really does help.

Like so many things that involve muscle memory practice until you no longer need to think about how to do it, just that you want to do it, your hands should do it automatically.

I had a student come to me for guitar lessons, another teacher told her that her guitar was junk and she would never learn on it. I spent about twenty minutes adjusting things and she played that guitar for 2 years and now 5 years later she makes me look like an I'm all thumbs. Desire and practice (and a little help from some one that knows how to set things up) usually can trump all the fancy stuff out there.

Good Luck and Good Flying,

MadDog Joe

[3ddd]

the only drawback with an edge is the fact that it is hard to get a level stall without looking forced, and that is a big ooooo,zero