SPINS!?!?!?

[Mithrandir]

OK... for me, back in the old days with the likes of a Mach 1, Jekyl and most slimers.... getting a distinct break in the spin entry was pretty easy.

With my two meter electric, and my 40% gas planes, if I try to do what used to be a "Normal" spin entry, the plane will never "Break"... it will simply increase AOA as the speed bleeds (maintaining level flight) and then, once full back stick is achieved, it simply begins to mush harrierishly wings level with no break.....

How do I get a break, or synthesize the appearance of a break into the spin???

[1bwana1]

Mith,
If you are flying one of your very rearward CG 3D setups, then the CG is likely the issue. A far back CG tends to make a plane mush rather than have a clean break.

[Mithrandir]

my planes are just an RCH noseheavy of neutral....

[bodywerks]

At the same time, too forward a CG will prevent you from achieving a good AOA. Judges look for an increase in AOA prior to a drop of the nose. Also, too high an idle will hinder the break, as will too low an elevator throw. You are right, though, it's more difficult to get our giant scale planes to break like those heavy, small, swept-leading-edge slimers. It just takes some technique.
You also don't need to wait for a wing to drop, but rather the nose. As soon as the nose drops, quickly feed in rudder in the direction you want to spin and slowly feed in aileron as needed.

[RollingHarrier]

Spins are the hardest to judge and the most frustrating to perform IMO.
Here is what IMAC says about it
http://www.mini-iac.com/InfoCentral/...-The-Spin.aspx

Here are some Highlights

• The plane need not reach zero ground speed in order to stall. In general, the plane will stall well before it ceases forward motion.
• When the airplane does stall, the nose will drop.(Drop does not mean break)
• When the airplane does stall, it will also drop a wing as, typically, one wing will lose lift before the other.
• The nose drop and the wing drop are supposed to occur simultaneously. If they do, then no deduction applies. Many judges look for the nose to clearly drop straight ahead indicating the stall and then for the wing drop to follow. This is wrong and that type of stall break should earn a deduction for the amount of the nose drop prior to the wing drop at .5 pt for 5 degrees. Note that you don’t care where all this happens relative to the horizon.

Also

• The alternative to auto-rotation is some kind of downward aileron roll. If it looks like an aileron roll, it probably is. This gets a zero as there is no auto-rotation.
• If the rotation of the airplane looks like a vertical barrel roll it probably is. This gets a zero as there is no autorotation.

I see many pilots play the game and perform the spin with the nose break and then drop the wing to start a rotation and end in an Aileron roll. This seems to be acceptable to most people judging.

[Mithrandir]

I have read of guys who switch from high rate to low rate, (at least on elev) so the nose will drop thusly "Faking" a break..... but I was curious if there was another way.. that was...well.... less bogus!!! lol

I was trying spins with my funtana 140S this weekend, and in 3D Rates, I would progress into a mush with no break, nose down maybe 10 degrees.. and sorta work a little power and rudder and sorta do a rotating harrier with the wing leading edge as the center of rotation..... looked really nice actually..... but hardly a traditional spin....

[1bwana1]

One of the best RC Pilots in the World uses the high rate/low rate switch trick to spin his pattern plane.

Does this new found interest in doing a proper spin mean that we will see you at the MiraMar IMAC in two weeks?

[Judge]

	Quote: Originally Posted by bodywerks
	Judges look for an increase in AOA prior to a drop of the nose.

I have never heard this before nor am I aware of any criteria for this. And since IMAC does not judge aircraft attitude, only the track of the theoretical center of mass it is impossible for any properly trained judge to do this.

So any judge who tells you this needs to be sent back to school.

[Judge]

	Quote: Originally Posted by 1bwana1
	One of the best RC Pilots in the World uses the high rate/low rate switch trick to spin his pattern plane.

There are some interesting things hidden in this statement.

The first thing to keep in mind is that it is the responsibility of the pilot to present the figure to the judges in such a manner as to optimize the assessment of the criteria.

Second, the above is not a "cheat" the plane must still stall and must still autorotate in order to be scored as a spin.

So all this is doing is presenting to the judges a more apparent drop of the nose. But be careful, because if the wing does not also drop simultaneously in the same direction there is a downgrade.

This comes back to the thinking that it does not matter (most of the time) how a pilot gets the plane to do something. ALL that the judge is judging is how well the plane fulfills the criteria.

The one exception to this is that for crosswind correction you cannot use roll to correct, only yaw. See Figure #5 Page SCA-11.

[bodywerks]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Judge
	I have never heard this before nor am I aware of any criteria for this. And since IMAC does not judge aircraft attitude, only the track of the theoretical center of mass it is impossible for any properly trained judge to do this. So any judge who tells you this needs to be sent back to school.

I'm not saying it's right - just going from past experiences. Judges seem to be more convinced that you actually stalled if you are at a positive AOA first. And many pilots would rather lose a single point by deviating from the flight path by 10 degrees to "show" the stall, than to lose 10 points because the judge doesn't see it the way he wants to see it.

[BreadBowl]

I've never had a problem getting pattern airplanes to break, both e- and glow powered. Just slow the airplane down, and spin with rudder and elevator when it breaks.

[Mithrandir]

	Quote: Originally Posted by BreadBowl
	I've never had a problem getting pattern airplanes to break, both e- and glow powered. Just slow the airplane down, and spin with rudder and elevator when it breaks.

My Super Extra, my ZN-Line, my Funtana 140S, my AW Ulti, my AW Katana and my 38% GP Extra will all simply slow down to a mushy slightly nose down harrier type attitude with no distinct break....

All are slightly positive-pitch stable....

(I approach the stall/spin with power pulled to idle and pulling the nose up to maintain level flight path until is is so slow it starts to mush)

[nickb]

A trick that I use, take it for what it's worth, is to start adding in a little rudder in the direction that I want the spin to go prior to the stall. Maybe about a 1/4 stick or less. You may have to add a little opp. aileron to keep wings level and this also helps to make the inboard wing stall first by increasing the angle of attack on the inboard wing and decreasing the outboard. Also, I'll take the hit for a little climb prior to the stall to avoid the power off mush. I also agree with the above posts- a more nose heavy plane spins much better.

[Judge]

	Quote: Originally Posted by bodywerks
	I'm not saying it's right - just going from past experiences. Judges seem to be more convinced that you actually stalled if you are at a positive AOA first.

Then judges need to be better trained

Page SCA-26 just under Figure 58

	Quote:
	This appearance is more pronounced when the figure is performed downwind, and is enhanced when performed into the wind. This change in appearance is not a grading criterion.

This is talking about how the nose attitude may appear during the spin entry.

[robertp17]

I think spins tend to give a lot of people trouble. I have this problem where I can do 10 in a row beautiful and then on the 11th I swear I am giving the same inputs but the plane wont break and i am full elevator but all it wants to do is drop the nose and not a wing. It seems to me that there is a certain speed that, if you get below it before you start to pull back on the elevator its sometimes to late. I dont like to "pop" the nose up but doing this will give you a break every single time. I like to slowly come into them level, and add a little elevator as I loose speed, then full up on low rates just before it stalls. When done right on my comp it looks like the plane comes to a complete stop for a spit second, then drop a wing. I got a comment from an advanced pilot / judge from Canada at my last contest that my spins look like something from a world class pilot.... I was bragging the rest of the day about it..