F3M - To Be or Not To Be

[NJRCFLYER]

Judge, these are good points about field setup and willing CD's. Fortunately, I'm a willing CD who has run several Scale Aerobatics contests in the past with high attendance, and have done the same for Pattern. I am good friends with other experienced CDs who just might want to try some variety too; we'll have to see. I've talked with several guys in the Northeast and the idea of a combined AMA Scale Aerobatics / F3M contest has appeal. I'm not stuck on that idea, I could just as easily make it F3M alone. We have an interesting situation here in the Northeast. For the past three years, a bunch of my friends with whom I used to fly Scale Aerobatics have hosted an excellent Pattern contest at their field in PA. They are a little too close to an interstate highway to allow AMA Scale Aerobatics contests, due to the huge foot print of the sequences in the upper classes. However, we may discover after test flying the F3M within the confines of the 140 degree box that they could potentially hold an F3M only contest there. Something to explore, for sure.

I'll have to get more feedback and see what has the most support here. I think the biggest challenge will be in getting an initial pool of judges spun up. Not that it's a daunting task, I just think it's probably the most important "ground breaking" thing to do to have a well run F3M contest. We're able to deal with differences in the rules between AMA Pattern and FAI Pattern, so we can do it here as well.

I know we have different opinions of how compatible the two events would be when combined, but frankly I don't see it as a big issue. I can paint the lines and the guys can ignore them while flying the Scale Aerobatics sequences. I think it could be quite a fun experiment. Just so everyone understands, in a combined FAI / AMA event, a contestant who normally flies any AMA class can choose to fly F3M, either alone, or along with their AMA class. This is permissible in Pattern and would be allowable here as well. What better way to try something more challenging? You can fly with the big boys from Unlimited in F3M and still be able to do your normal thing in Intermediate, or Advanced , or whatever.

One way or another, we'll get some F3M activity going and see where it leads to.

[NJRCFLYER]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Jim Woodward
	I see F3M as a "win win" for the pattern comunity. Mostly, it will expose guys who already have competition quality equipment, who already hit the contest trail, to what "precision aerobatics" really is. I hope it reinvigorates people that have left r/c aerobatics for one reason or another. They may also end up wanting to get involved with AMA/F3A pattern too. So from my perspective, the pattern community has only to gain from any association to F3M (scale aerobatics flown in the 3-zone angled box). Thank You, Jim

Jim, I agree 100%! Back in the late 90's when I was first involved in Scale Aerobatics, there were a lot of Pattern guys experimenting with it as well. There were enough similarities that they could see it as a very reasonable thing to try, without a major expense. Most airplanes were in the 25% to 33% size range then, which also helped. Once the stuff with no box definition and subjective sound and positioning scores started, that was pretty much the end of that crossover around here. In fact, that's what got me into Pattern. However there is less of a cost spread between a good "IMAC style" setup and a top of the line Pattern setup these days, so I would expect some crossover back to F3M to occur due to the appeal of having a defined box to fly in, as well as a sequence that flows well, with geometric grace and precision. I've still got my 2002 vintage Carden Extra 330, just waiting to go!

[Jim Woodward]

Thanks Ed. I'll try to hop a plane up to your event when it happens. I also think that for some initial events, it would be worth it to take 1/2 a day and fly seminar rounds with group coaching and judging test flights with discussion.

Seminars, contests, or both together, are ways to get the spirit going.
Thanks,
Jim

[Judge]

	Quote: Originally Posted by NJRCFLYER
	. I think the biggest challenge will be in getting an initial pool of judges spun up.

This is why I think a pattern contest is the better place to try to mix them if only because of having judges more attuned to the FAI rules.

However it is done, I think it is a cool idea. Like I said, the only thing I dislike about it is the fact that they do not use the FAI/Aresti catalog, even though their rules say they do.

[NJRCFLYER]

	Quote: Originally Posted by dmichael
	I've had a discussion on the subject of avoidance at pattern contests- a year or two ago- I was told that you could not call avoidance in pattern.

Dave, I don't see why F3M contests should not allow for collision avoidance. I don't quite remember the history of collision avoidance as a rule for Scale Aerobatics. Didn't it start as a common practice that became a rule? Regardless, I would simply declare it in effect in the sanction. I've never been convinced that it's all that effective, but at the same time, it is what a lot of Scale Aerobatics flyers are used to, so we might as well continue using it for F3M.

[BoneDoc]

Is the 10% rule only applies to WS and Length, or is it in ALL aspect of scale?

[MattyMatt]

	Quote: Originally Posted by BoneDoc
	Is the 10% rule only applies to WS and Length, or is it in ALL aspect of scale?

It is the same as IMAC. Wingspan dictates % scale. All dimensions must be with in 10% of whatever scale the model is. The outline of the wings, and stabs are part of the % scale. The size of the control surfaces (rudder, aileron, elevator) does not have to be within scale.

Wing/stab position, fuse size must all be within 10%. Again, this is exactly the same as IMAC rules.

The only difference is that in IMAC it is up to the discretion of the CD to request proof of scale. In F3M, it is a requirement for the pilot or team representative to submit proof of scale documentation.

[derek.koopowitz]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Judge
	And I have witnessed twice at contest this year where it was fine. Most judges can tell the difference and do not penalize the pilot. I think the pattern rules need a tweak to write this into their rules, much as they have already written in about not downgrading a pilot who displaces a figure to avoid the sun. Safety HAS to come first and any CD that does not allow for a no penalty safety break is taking things too far in my mind. After doing some checking it is in fact not allowed in pattern, although like I said I have seen it happen without penalty. Sort of "local rules".

I'm adding this as a question to our rules survey...

[BoneDoc]

By that definition, NONE of our 3D capable model has control surfaces within the 10% scale of the original probably.

[exeter_acres]

OK...I have to ask...
My feelings aside.. I am interested in F3M and the details and am also interested in trying my hand at Pattern too...

But it was eluded to in this thread and I'm honestly curious...

This is clearly stated in the FAI, F3A Sporting code

	Quote:
	Known and unknown schedules must use patterns according to the full size FAI Aresti catalogue.

yet it is not followed? Why is that?

[dmichael]

	Quote: Originally Posted by NJRCFLYER
	..... I don't quite remember the history of collision avoidance as a rule for Scale Aerobatics. Didn't it start as a common practice that became a rule?

I really don't know for sure, Ed, but that sounds right to me.

[Jim Woodward]

Curtis, this is part of learning what is required, and what will be used. Perhaps Julien who's is leading F3M in France, can add some insight. I am leaving for a few days and do not know if there will be internet access or not.

Please keep the positive stuff going. Than You Jim

[exeter_acres]

Well, I guess my question is in regards to F3A and FAI, not F3m specifically as my quote if from the FAI, F3A sporting code...

[can773]

That quote is located in the F3M section of the F3 sporting code and is not related to F3A. F3A does not follow the full size aresti catalog. The unknown maneuvers used in F3A are contained in the sporting code.

	Quote: Originally Posted by exeter_acres
	OK...I have to ask... My feelings aside.. I am interested in F3M and the details and am also interested in trying my hand at Pattern too... But it was eluded to in this thread and I'm honestly curious... This is clearly stated in the FAI, F3A Sporting code yet it is not followed? Why is that?

[exeter_acres]

Got it... appears the F3M sequence still is using non-FAI maneuvers.. would be curious as to the reasoning.

I don't have my catalogs here to verify though..
Like all, trying to learn.