F3M - To Be or Not To Be

[exeter_acres]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Judge
	FWIW Ed, I agree about the Freestyle. People here think this automatically means 3D "how low can you go" flying. That is not what I get from reading the F3M rules:

Nor the IMAC rules

[NJRCFLYER]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Judge
	Just quoting their own rule Ed, nothing "purist" about it. It's their rule, but obviously do not follow it. I wish they did.

Good point Judge, but IMAC has invented its own deviations from the Aresti catalog, and continues to do so. In the past, we thought we were doing a wise thing by lowering K-factors for tail slides and raising them for rolling circles. It's not worth getting into why, but that phase obviously has passed, for the better I think. However, the introduction of the sound score, and the positioning score (now renamed the ACS score) also deviate from the catalog. You can't find these in the Aresti catalog (not the last time I looked anyway), yet your score is based on the inclusion of these unofficial "figures", along with the invention of the purely subjective scoring methods that exist for them.

I would prefer that the F3M rules change to accurately reflect the way the sequences are being constructed. This is still in its infancy, so I think it's understandable that some discrepancies may pop up. Even good old AMA RC Aerobatics has things pop in and out of the rules that leave some of us scratching our heads at times. It's an imperfect world, so we cope with it to the extent that we are willing to. I was no longer willing to cope with the changes that the IMAC BOD pushed into the AMA Scale Aerobatics rules some years ago, so I chose another path. No big deal, go with what appeals the most. In retrospect, this was a good change for me, as it broadened my horizons by trying something different, which I still enjoy immensely. I think that F3M holds the same potential for many of us.

[MattyMatt]

Regarding the Freestyle...

F3M as described in the FAI sporting code describes what will be done at a world level event, just like the F3M section does as well. Most F3A FAI local contests do not follow the changes for the formatt exactly...

I would expect the same type of thing with F3M, that being a choice at a local event to do the free or not.

I also agree... freestyle does not = 3D. Not the same in my eyes. Freestyle should include some aspects in 3D as it the pilot should show the full range of the aircrafts capabilities.

[exeter_acres]

IMAC does indeed follow the Aresti catalog...

[NJRCFLYER]

	Quote: Originally Posted by exeter_acres
	IMAC does indeed follow the Aresti catalog...

To be clear as possible, if your Scale Aerobatics flight score includes one or more "figures" that do not appear in the Aresti catalog, then it is not accurate to claim that the Aresti catalog is being fully followed. If it were, there would be no sound score and no ACS score included in the points tally for the round, i.e., your score would be based soley on the precision with which you flew a sequence constructed of Aresti catalog figures. That is not the case with the AMA Scale Aerobatics rules as they are today. I really don't wish to debate this point. It was pointed out for the sake of accuracy in the discussion about who's following the Aresti catalog. It's just a fact and I would appreciate moving on to discuss F3M development here in the US. There is at least one quirk related to F3M rules and the corresponding sequence, so it's not perfect either, but we want to move forward.

[300sflyer]

How about the poll results thus far? Nearly 2/3 of the votes are in favor of a new organization with lower classes. Could this mean a new SIG under the AMA is in the future?

[exeter_acres]

	Quote: Originally Posted by NJRCFLYER
	To be clear as possible, if your Scale Aerobatics flight score includes one or more "figures" that do not appear in the Aresti catalog, then it is not accurate to claim that the Aresti catalog is being fully followed. If it were, there would be no sound score and no ACS score included in the points tally for the round, i.e., your score would be based soley on the precision with which you flew a sequence constructed of Aresti catalog figures. That is not the case with the AMA Scale Aerobatics rules as they are today. I really don't wish to debate this point. It was pointed out for the sake of accuracy in the discussion about who's following the Aresti catalog. It's just a fact and I would appreciate moving on to discuss F3M development here in the US. There is at least one quirk related to F3M rules and the corresponding sequence, so it's not perfect either, but we want to move forward.

Sound and ACS are NOT figures....
and to say so is not accurate.

[300sflyer]

	Quote: Originally Posted by exeter_acres
	Sound and ACS are NOT figures.... and to say so is not accurate.

In your opinion...

[NJRCFLYER]

	Quote: Originally Posted by 300sflyer
	How about the poll results thus far? Nearly 2/3 of the votes are in favor of a new organization with lower classes. Could this mean a new SIG under the AMA is in the future?

Mike, I just want to get started with a few F3M contests, but I guess you never know where this will lead. I think it is ultimately better if Scale Aerobatics enthusiasts do not split off into a separate SIG. Present day IMAC BOD thinking notwithstanding, it's really not such a leap to combine F3M with what already exists. It's just a not invented here mindset on display, and perhaps someday it will pass. My preferred approach is to involve present day IMAC members by painting a few lines, training a few judges, and adding the F3M category to a Scale Aerobatics contest.

It's not my intent to turn everything upside down and go head to head with the IMAC contest schedule and district championship structure. I prefer to just integrate F3M into it, even if in a small way to start with. If that doesn't work out, so be it. I'm not opposed to another aproach, but my current opinion is that the main appeal of F3M will be to provide a vehicle for the best of the best Pattern and Scale Aerobatics pilots to compete for a slot on the USA team someday. Since there is a good pilot spawning ground already available within the framework of the existing AMA events, I'm not sure if constructing new lower classes is needed to do that, but I'm open to more discussion on it.

[NJRCFLYER]

	Quote: Originally Posted by exeter_acres
	Sound and ACS are NOT figures.... and to say so is not accurate.

I know they are not actual aerobatics figures, which is why I put "figures" in quotes. Nevertheless, they have the same effect on your flight score as a figure from the catalog. That is undeniable. In the end, how different is that than applying an actual aerobatic figure that is not in the catalog? The only difference I see is that for the invented figure in F3M, the same objective judging criteria for downgrades applies as for a figure from the Aresti catalog. That is not the case with the sound and ACS scores. We can agree to disagree on this if necessary, I don't want to pound on this topic any further.

[Judge]

Well, I agree that the ACS and sound scores are poorly conceived and badly done and that is no secret. But I also think it is imprecise to call them "figures", even in quotes. I am also not sure that IMAC uses adjusted K factors any longer, and when they did I opposed it. But none of that has any bearing on the situation that the F3M rules state that the FAI/Aresti catalog will be used, and then they do not do so.

So I am still curious why they wrote it into the rules only to ignore it?

If F3M gets going here I would prefer to see Aresti based figures rather than not. The argument that it is scale aerobatics supports doing that if nothing else.

And if we want to do it here I think that it will be necessary to construct one or two lower classes since not many pilots will feel comfortable with the F3M Known as written. But I do like the idea of using the same base figures but toning down the roll elements etc. to adjust the difficulty. Obviously you could also adjust the amount of inverted flight as well while still preserving most of the sequence flow.

[BoneDoc]

Not to mention there's freestyle that's factored in. I love freestyle, and freestyle is what gets me doing IMAC. However, BAD Freestyle is PAINFUL to watch. It's like poking your eyes with a needle .

[Andy Thomas]

This will definitely go after your best all around pilots like TOC and Clover.

[derek.koopowitz]

	Quote: Originally Posted by 300sflyer
	How about the poll results thus far? Nearly 2/3 of the votes are in favor of a new organization with lower classes. Could this mean a new SIG under the AMA is in the future?

Perhaps...

[Judge]

The more interesting question is what contest board the rules proposals would go to in order to get them into the AMA rule book. The Scale Aerobatics Contest Board or the Aerobatics Contest Board??

Early on it will likely be easier to sanction contests as non-rule book events until it can be written into the rules.

BTW - there is no need for a SIG to be formed in order to get rules into the book. But forming a new SIG dedicated to this style of scale aerobatics would certainly be a very interesting development.

It may also not even be necessary to write them into the rules. Soaring runs F3B and F3J contests all the time, including Team selection contests and neither F3B or F3J are in the AMA rule book.