F3M - To Be or Not To Be

[Jim Woodward]

	Quote: Originally Posted by rcplanefan
	Perhaps not. I've read that post. It reads like a disgruntled IMAC member asking for the AMA to revoke IMAC's SIG status. Am I reading this incorrectly? You guys are very verbose until someone asks a direct question. Ken

Hi Ken,

I'm back from a few days out of the country. I really don't want to "cross-threads" so to speak, but the statements towards revoking IMAC's SIG status satirically point out the conflict of interest between representing the independant needs of the USA pilot for the AMA, and the goal of creating an organization that the entire world will look to for leadership (reference the IMAC Secratary's post detailing how many countries IMAC supports now). No apologies for the analogy either.

Somewhere else you asked what the purpose of this is. I have tried to post my personal motivations clearly from post #1 on. For me, FAI/F3M offers THE platform for flying model aerobatics in the 3-zone-angled-box (similarily used in the TOC days). The FAI structure (one country, one vote) makes rules tinkering much more difficult and as of late, I see this as a positive attribute. Also, I'm not going to spend anymore energy trying to debate the ACS'ers (personal choice). I will still fly some IMAC contests to when they fit into the schedule too. I really don't get jazzed about the freestyle part, but will put something together for F3M.

The purpose of my creating a pole is to see from those that have an opinion on F3M, where they think it fits into the aerobatics paradigm. I'm OK with starting a new SIG with lower classes, but obviously, I started down the path of including this as a single class in IMAC (RFA rejected by BOD though). If wanting to fly model aerobatics the way it used to be makes me a disgruntal IMAC member, then I guess I'm disgruntal as it can get (and not alone) Its not our fault so much energy has gone down the wrong path (now accelerated with higher ACS K-Factors to come).

Thank You,

Jim

[NJRCFLYER]

We're looking for constructive input and quite naturally, there may be dismay expressed by those dedicated to a different approach to International Scale Aerobatics competition than F3M offers. Learning from past successes and mistakes is the key. F3M will either stand on its own merits or not, so let's just keep moving along and not dwell on parsing the English language on demand. This isn't about going to battle with the IMAC SIG. IMAC is going to do it's own thing and draw those who see it as the way to go. Fine with me if it stays as-is, or changes to adopt F3M some day.

I am intrigued by the poll results so far. I had expected more interest in adding F3M into AMA Scale Aerobatics contests. The thought I've got at this point, if the polls hold up over the next few weeks and months, and in particular if the North Eastern IMAC guys I know favor it, I'll look to probably start out with a 1 day F3M contest some time next year, probably including feeder classes as well. In the end, either approach is fine with me.

[NJRCFLYER]

Jim W., is there a way to have a poll that lasts longer than 7 days?

[Jim Woodward]

Ed - I'm not sure how to extend the poll, but we can do another one in a month or two.

Here is the Friday F3M reminder - go forth an conquer! Practice the F3M schedule this weekend and give it a shot. If you are lucky to have a field with poles setup for the pattern box, the sequence can fit into it. Take a walk to the center of your field!!! From your pilot station, step out 170 steps and this should put you in the range of 150-175 meters. Put a gallon jug there or something so when you fly, a friend can walk out there and watch you make passes, then report back as to wether you are flying too close or too far out. This the fast way to shaping your new visual paradigm.

I'll be flying it this Sunday weather permitting.
Thanks,
Jim

[Jim Woodward]

I flew the sequence 7 times over 4 flights yesterday. With my Da170 RE3 Mez 30x13 combo, I can fly the sequence twice and still have gas left over for more, using Dubro 50 cc tank! This is mostly due to the throttle control you MUST execute if you want to keep the sequence in the box lines. The sequence is challenging for sure. The 3-roller from inverted gave me the most fits untill I started to trust that the rudder it takes to initiate the turn actually becomes "top" rudder on the first 90 portion of the first roll (out). I hadn't flown my 300 since the Atlanta contest and it was nice to see that everything ran well just like it did the last time I flew it.

I did get some feedback from guys that were picking up some airplane parts, and I was definately flying within the 150-175 meters. If someone is reading this and doesn't have a feel for what 150-175 meters is- Trainers typically fly patterns that are about that far out, so it is not a huge distance to be away from the runway.

Well, did anyone else give it a shot this weekend?
Thanks,
Jim

[MattyMatt]

I'm glad to hear you like the 30X13... I'm re fitting my MEL300 with a new 170, RE3's with the new 14" headers and a 30X13. I'm really excited.


I've been flying the Advanced sequence with my 260... it has the inverted to inverted 270 3 roll roller in it. How far are you going on the back side of the roller... it is a tough manuver to keep really tight.

[Jim Woodward]

Matt - The 30x13 in my opinion is the right direction for props. I would try a 29x14 if there was one available. The F3M sequence has a "double-negative-tophat" with 1/2 rolls in the verticals and snaps on horizontals. In order to center this maneuver, it has tight radii, snaps, and right into uplines. This prop provides "punch" and upline acceleration, but is still quiet overall. Jimmy likes it

[NJRCFLYER]

Jim, I'm targeting next weekend to try out the sequence. I'm still working on a little upgrade for my Carden. New receiver, rudder servos, batteries & regulators etc.

[Jim Woodward]

Hi Ed - sounds great that this has given some motivation to "refirb" the Carden!! I look forward to hearing your experience with it and the sequence.
Thanks,
Jim

[NJRCFLYER]

Jim, it will be next weekend for the Carden getting back in the air. As I got in to it, I decided on fixing up a few other little things, and you know how that goes! Anyway, just to get back into the swing of doing rollers and the like, I started working on the F3A P-11 and today, the F-11. I like that first fig M in the P11 with the integrated 1/2 roll on the push between the stall turns. It's a nice break from practicing Masters all the time.

Rather than fly the F3M with a pattern plane, I figure I will wait another week. I don't think it's a good enough test, given the speed differentials and so forth.

I need to start identifying potential locations for F3M contests next year. I've come over the idea of starting a SIG, or trying to anyway. I need to figure out whether feeder classes are something that we need here in the NE or not. I think we probably do, but I have to balance that out with the likely interest level of newer SA pilots. In any case, I think the initial contest format is likely to be a one day event, but that will depend on the host club(s) too.

[300sflyer]

There are some "feeder" classes being used over in Europe. Perhaps the same ones could be used here in North America too.

http://www.belairmodels.be/sport/sections/F3M/season-2009/programs-and-aresti-descriptions

[Judge]

I think that that link is to a site in Belgium. I've looked at it before and I had the impression that this was what they were doing in Belgium only. I am not sure how widely used their feeder class idea is.

I think it is a good idea to use them, but alos think that the US could go its own way there since there is no true standard in use for feeder classes. BTW - I like that term better than "lower" classes.

[Jim Woodward]

Hi Ed and Judge -

Thanks for the notes on your progress. I'm in Columbus, OH now until Wednesday. I maidened two CA Models Passport's Sunday! One was mihe, the other a my friend George's. So, i'll try for some F3M practice this weekend. I can tell you, you will enjoy the "challenge" of positioning the sequence in the box again. Now, I need to "trust" the plane a little more going aroudn the roller and it will start to shape up better for me. Otherwise, I think it is wonderful to see the majestic Dalton 300 going through the the F3M sequecne with "centered" rolling maneuvers, loop, and triangle loop.
Thanks,
Jim

[qdaemon]

Hi folks

Sorry to be late !...

Very pleased to see that things are moving. Some answers to the questions I see :

- yes F3M is using non Full scale aresti sequence while it is written in the rules that
it should. FAI aerobatic board did not see that when voting the rules. I knew that but for
a political reason, I let it do. Anyway, this sequence has only one more year to live...
2011 sequence will be aresti compliant. (Even if I don't see why it is so important to
be strickly aresti compliant...)

- There's something I don't understand is why so many people are attached to
the full scale aresti K factor ? How you can you
imagine that with model plane, a loop is more difficult inverted than not inverted ??
Physiological reason, and also the fact that in the plane you do not see like
what you see when flying remote are the reason for the full scale K factor. But
definitively, there are not showing the difficulty of RC.

- mid air : Yes we do fly one pilot at a time. If you wish to fly several at a time, you
may do something for that...

- proof of scale : The rule exists. It exists to avoid people to fly with big pattern planes.
In fact, we never check that. As most of the planes comes from kits, we should kick 80% of
the pilots... I like the idea that F3M is and stay a fun and fair play category. So if your plane
looks like an extra or a cap or an edge, it's ok. Of course, for WC, planes will have to
meet the 10% requirements.

- you do not have to fly the same plane for aresti and freestyle. But most of us are only changing
props and sometimes CG... So difficult to bring 2 planes a at time...

- Fly low to get points on freestyle : ok, best pilots flies low but it is not the reason why they

win... freestyle is not circus.

- Fixed wing : I do not like soccer but I do not see why I other people should not play soccer.

- feeder classes : FAI is not supposed to managed "low" level categories. It manages only
world championship categories. This allows each country to design
its own intermediate categories regarding how it is made in his country :
number of pilots, level of the pilots and so on.

For F3M in europe, we succeeded to agree on a single rule
for intermediates categories. We are using two intermediate
categories. you can find arestis in the french rules here :

http://www.ffam.asso.fr/activite/pdf...%202009%29.pdf

the two categories are named "espoir" (basic) and national (intermediate).

- Yes the double hat is quite tricky...it depends a lot on the rolling circle.

- A very important thing : If any of you plan to organize an f3m contest, it would be
a great help. What's important is to register it to FAI calendar. It's mandatory
to have the highest number of FAI registered contests if we want ton gain world
championship. Registring an FAI contest should be done before november 15th. It should
cost something like $50.

and a question :
can anybody explain me what acs is ?

Best regards
Julien

[NJRCFLYER]

Julian:
It's highly unlikely that I will have firm contest plans before late winter, so I would miss the November deadline for registering a contest. In addition, I'm having trouble understanding why I would want to pay a fee from the proceeds of small local contest in order to enhance the possibility of a future WC event. Don't get me wrong, I would like to see WC F3M happen, but it seems to me that it's more important to get people flying F3M than to collect schedule fees at this time. I do not anticipate high contestant turnouts in the early going, and in order to convince most host clubs to give up their field and their time, they want to see some revenue for it. I'll certainly share contest info before & after, which I should think would serve the purpose.

As for ACS, as best I can tell, it's a means of eliminating formerly well defined aerobatic box boundaries and centering criteria, while introducing a purely subjective additional scoring element that defies all attempts to define how to consistently and fairly judge it, or how to prepare to perform the aerobatic sequence to maximize your score. It is claimed that it solves the problem of large airspace footprints by eliminating visible box boundaries and allowing the pilot to place aerobatic figures where he thinks they are best presented. That doesn't make much sense to me, but that's what supposedly can happen. Since scoring ACS is up to individual interpretation, my friends in the region that still fly AMA Scale Aerobatics tell me that it is usually not applied in local contests in the Northeast US. I don't compete in those contests any longer, so I'm going by what I hear about its usage.