I DONT UNDERSTAND

[rede2fly]

ok ill try and keep it short. i have been interested in imac and i just went to another meet this weekend to stay and check it out. i dont know anything about judging or how the pilots are really scored. i new a few people there and so i decided to see if i could check out some of thier scores on the imac site, while doing this i saw some things that didnt make any since to me at all. ok now to question that i dont understand. while checking scoring of diferent manuvers of some different pilots 1 judge would score the manuver a 0 and the other would score it a 7 how in the world does this make since. is there some kind guideline that both judges should be scoring on or is it just what ever they want to give you for whatever reason???? iam a little confused on how this works. help please

[zoomer260]

	Quote: Originally Posted by rede2fly
	ok ill try and keep it short. i have been interested in imac and i just went to another meet this weekend to stay and check it out. i dont know anything about judging or how the pilots are really scored. i new a few people there and so i decided to see if i could check out some of thier scores on the imac site, while doing this i saw some things that didnt make any since to me at all. ok now to question that i dont understand. while checking scoring of diferent manuvers of some different pilots 1 judge would score the manuver a 0 and the other would score it a 7 how in the world does this make since. is there some kind guideline that both judges should be scoring on or is it just what ever they want to give you for whatever reason???? iam a little confused on how this works. help please

Simple.

One was scratching his ass while the other "caught it". It being the "ZERO" Boo-Boo.

One blinked.

No two people think alike ?

I could give a dozen such examples.

[Dan_nO]

Yes, there are rules and guidelines that are supposed to be followed. There is no rym or reason for what you seen at times, because one person see's something a certain way doesnt mean another is going to even though things are written in black and white. Been doing this for 3 years and it makes no sense to me to see something myself that I and several others knew was a zero because there was two manuevers on a line and only one was performed, not a one of the 3 judges zeroed it, how do 3 judges miss something like that ? I have no answer for it.

[Dan_nO]

Amen Zoomer

[dmichael]

Without knowing the specifics I can offer some potential ideas.

Judging requires the application of different rules- hitting precise points or performing the prescribed criteria for example- but is done by humans so there will be errors that we strive to minimize through judging clinics and other ways to educate all potential judges. Sometimes one judge will see what he believes to be a manuever that wasn't performed correctly while the other judge felt differently. Spin entries and snaps are prime candidates: Did the plane stall on spin entry or not? Did the "outboard" wing climb on entry? Did the plane break on snap or did the pilot "roll out of the snap"? Sometimes, even with both judges understanding the judging criteria, they will make different calls on what they saw.

In the end, I believe that the vast majority of time the correct flyer wins.

[Twizlair]

Some judges that have been around for some time know what it looks like when guys try to cheat a maneuver. Most times it is true though that one judge is not up to speed on the rules or is HUA. thats the risk in IMAC each judge gets to see the flight and score it. In the old days they had to agree on a zero which was a pain cuz you had to talk about something that may have happened 15 figures ago and you can not remember the exact reason for a score or a zero.

The other thing is one judge on left one on right sometimes makes a huge difference as to the view of the aircraft. You would think only being 5 feet to the left/right would not matter but sometimes it is huge.

[rede2fly]

	Quote: Originally Posted by dmichael
	Without knowing the specifics I can offer some potential ideas. Judging requires the application of different rules- hitting precise points or performing the prescribed criteria for example- but is done by humans so there will be errors that we strive to minimize through judging clinics and other ways to educate all potential judges. Sometimes one judge will see what he believes to be a manuever that wasn't performed correctly while the other judge felt differently. Spin entries and snaps are prime candidates: Did the plane stall on spin entry or not? Did the "outboard" wing climb on entry? Did the plane break on snap or did the pilot "roll out of the snap"? Sometimes, even with both judges understanding the judging criteria, they will make different calls on what they saw. In the end, I believe that the vast majority of time the correct flyer wins.

i totaly understand what you are saying but. if iam going to get into imac and put most if not all of my flying time into this i would like to know that someone is watching the people that are watching you as a pilot. i could understand a difference of a point or 2 but a 7 point spread is hard to swallow. 1 guy sees a 0 and the other sees 7 someone isnt doing something right here. should something such as this bring up a red flag to someone somewhere. i hate to waste my time if i know i can be given false scores for whatever reason deemed.. weather it being iam not wearing the right tee shirt , or iam not flying the most popular airplane, you know what iam saying. not saying that happens.

[brycesteenburg]

I have been asked a couple of times why I don't get involved in flying at IMAC contests and you hit one of the reasons I chose not too. Seems to be some universal system that is accepted but not a universal way to "see" a manuever. It looks like most of the judging is first concluded with emotional value then a logical value added after that. A best guess to give a number to what that individual call's and see's as that manuever. Oh well, at least it is a way to "call" the contest. Flame away people.
Bryce

[smokin]

I would LOVE a "7"!!! LOL

[sukhoi26]

You must be talking about the Ocala event.

[rede2fly]

	Quote: Originally Posted by sukhoi26
	You must be talking about the Ocala event.

yep that was the event. i didnt fly or anything i was seeing if it was something i could get myself into. so i decided to check out some scores to see how it looks and stumble across some things that didnt make any sense too me. so i figured i would ask. seeing i dont know how its done. i figured this would be the place to ask about certian things i read, just too see the hows and why-fors.. you have to know the rules before you can play the game. not trying to start any wars just trying to figure it out. if iam going to put a lot of time into it

[floridaflyer]

If you "really" want to fly IMAC, just go do it. Dont worry about scores your first few events. Make sure you start in Basic, no matter how good "you" think you are. IMAC is fun. Dont take it too personally or seriously. It will make you a better pilot.
I just moved to Florida from Indiana and the NCFR of IMAC. Flying IMAC events up there was just great fun and competitve as well. I have not been to any events here yet.
I have been to the IMAC Judging School in Muncie, IN. You will find good and bad judges everywhere. The way the scoring systems works everything works out in the end. Even if you have an instance where one judge gives a 0 and the other gives a 7 or whatever.
If you are already that concerned about scoring and have not even competed yet, you may want to try something else. Anybody on these forums that says they wont compete in a IMAC event is probably somebody that cant even fly a straight line from one end of the field to the other. You'd be suprised at how difficult that really is when you are being judged.
So I say try it once, can't hurt.

Bye the way, I live in Ft. Lauderdale. I would be happy to help you out if you live close.

[dmichael]

	Quote: Originally Posted by brycesteenburg
	I have been asked a couple of times why I don't get involved in flying at IMAC contests and you hit one of the reasons I chose not too. Seems to be some universal system that is accepted but not a universal way to "see" a manuever. It looks like most of the judging is first concluded with emotional value then a logical value added after that. A best guess to give a number to what that individual call's and see's as that manuever. Oh well, at least it is a way to "call" the contest. Flame away people. Bryce

Respectfully, your description is off the mark.

Is judging perfect? No way. People aren't perfect.

In my experience, scores are absolutely not "first concluded with emotional value" nor are they giving "a best guess". Certainly, judges are instructed not to judge this way. There are specific rules and criteria. Some judges are better at knowing and applying them than others- most judges get it mostly right. But- even good judges make mistakes.

The World Series starts tomorrow. Some strikes will be called balls and some balls will be called strikes but the majority of the time the ump gets it right. If he didn't he would be removed. It's the same with IMAC and other types of judged competitions- pattern, figure skating, gymnastics, ball room dancing, etc. IMAC does a good job educating judges but of course we always strive to do better.

[dmichael]

.

[ckeene9]

Rede2fly, I understand what you are saying here. I was scored a 0 and a 6 on the same manuever this weekend at that contest, don't understand why or how. If I were to judge it myself I would've given it a 4 at best due to way too much over-rotation.

It happens sometimes and most of the time it's not enough to fuss over and is apart of the game.